Dante #2: Paradise Cantos 5-7

Five, and my point is we were over four and in four I had this really big question. So in Canto 4 they show themselves to here not because this is their sphere but as a sign for you that in the inferion their place is lowest. So what I take this section to mean is that even though there's no difference in accommodations, like there's a five-star hotel, there's a four-star hotel, and everyone goes to the five-star hotel, however, there is a difference in prestige, as in their place is lowest.

Okay, great question. So first of all we are beyond time and space. So everything is together. It's complete unity. Unison. Does that make sense? That's point one. Point two is that everyone is with God in the. That is what it is in reality. But to make it comprehensible to Dante, Beatrice has constructed the heavens in a hierarchy. And then what is this hierarchy? This is the amount of God that you receive in your soul. So you are all in heaven. You're all with God. But there are certain souls that are able to receive the light of God greater than other souls.

Okay. So I was just rereading Canto 1 to 4 and there was a couple of lines in Canto 2 that caught my attention because at least I found them to be very interesting. So I'm going to read it out to you guys. From line 23 to 25 it should be, "but in a span perhaps no longer than an arrow takes to strike, to fly, to leave." So ideally I think the right order is first for the arrow to leave the bow, to fly, and then to strike. So why does Dante kind of intentionally reverse this order during this part of the text?

Okay. So first of all we are beyond time and space, meaning that what's happening here in maybe our universe is just one second or less than that. So everything's happening at once.

From line 23 to 25.

Okay. Line 23 to 25.

Line 23 to 25.

Okay. Can you read it again?

"But in a span perhaps no longer than an arrow takes to strike, to fly, to leave the bow, I reached a place where I could see that something wonderful drew me."

So I'm just interested why Dante is reversing the order that typically an arrow shoots out from a bow, because it should be first it leaves the bow, then it flies, then finally it strikes.

Yeah. So there's no time, then there's no. Right. So there are, the most basic interpretation is that this is happening so fast that it's beyond perception. Do you understand? Because what we're seeing is human perception, right? It's the human logic and what he's saying is that this is happening so fast it's even beyond my perception. But another way to interpret this is it's beyond your perception because it's collapsing time and space. Does it make sense, guys?

Can I offer a thought?

Yesterday you put on your board "where there's a will there's a way."

And so in a way this reverse order kind of enunciates the importance of the aim and the goal first and then goes backwards. And yes, chronologically it's different, but you know, this is inspired by commentary here too. It's kind of how things actually happen because where there's a will, there's a way. And you start with the goal first, the end first.

And then everything else proceeds. That's beautiful. Thank you. Yes. Yes. Okay. So again, there are multiple explanations, right? Good. Okay. Yes. So I hope to add to that because as I was biking home last night, I was listening to a book on Einstein and the narrator connected it to Dante just coincidentally. And Einstein's working with space and time and he had this kind of quip that said time is what prevents everything from happening at once. And then they said much like Dante's Paradise where everything can and does happen at once.

Yes. You know, I want to add to this point and point out that the greatest, they were first and foremost poets. They were the ones who were willing to imagine a new reality. People like Newton and Einstein.

So this is something that we've forgotten, where before science was driven by the imagination, by intuition, by poetry, by the occult, by a desire to be closer to God. And now we've broken science into these logical processes that are compartmentalized. That's why honestly for the past 70 years, we've accomplished nothing. We've had no breakthroughs for these past 70 years. So thank you for that. Any more questions before we begin? Yes. This is more of a conceptual question. So yesterday you emphasized to us repeatedly the importance of imagination and intuition.

Okay. So we'll talk about this today. But Dante is very much a revolutionary. He's trying to respond to limitations of his time and period. And his major concern is that the Catholic Church is involved in geopolitics, meaning that the Catholic Church is trying to be the empire. And he doesn't like that because it obviously creates a lot of problems. It creates a lot of, so Dante's primary concern is that as an empire, the Catholic Church is not focused enough on spirituality, not focused enough on mysticism, on the occult. It's more focused on temporal power, on getting people to obey them.

Yeah. So, oh, this is really loud. So one overall question maybe for the book as well is, I still don't really understand how he came up with all of this. Did it come to him in a dream? Was it multiple dreams and then he wrote them down or Did he just imagine it on his desk, sitting on his desk, or walking in a park or something?

How was it? And it's so in-depth as well, I don't understand that.

Okay. So there are two major themes today. The first major theme is Dante's revolution against the Catholic Church. What are his concerns about the Catholic Church and what is he trying to change about the Catholic Church? That's the first major concern. The second major concern is how did he write this? Because this is a time before computers. This is a time where pen and paper are not that accessible. And he published first the Inferno, then the Purgatory and then Paradise. But you read the Divine Comedy, it is pretty coherent.

Personally I think assuming that the brother has true belief in God, I think this hypothetical is a little bit weird because as you mentioned before our free will is our most precious gift from God and the only person you can surrender your free will to is the person who gave it to you, as in God. However, the brother here is playing God. The brother here is presuming on behalf of another to take away her free will. I know that in the Catholic Church a wife swears obedience to her husband upon marriage.

No, no, no, no, she's already dead, like Oh, she's already died.

No, I'm saying you come into the convent, I'm going to jump, I'm going to throw myself off the roof. I'm going to kill myself. How can he possibly save her? Okay. All right. So here what he's going to do now is say, you know what, Piccarda, I'm going to kidnap our mother. I'm going to kill her unless you come out of the convent and marry my friend, right?

That's something he would do.

Why couldn't he just marry his own daughter or another sister?

Because he made a vow, right? He said before this battle, if we, he saying this to his friend, I swear to God, if we win this battle, I will give you my sister Piccarda as your bride. So he's already made this vow.

He goes and gets another brother. No. No. Piccarda goes and gets their father and then says, "If you kill our mother, I will kill our father."

Okay guys, this is not how it works. So now it seems like Piccarda has no choice, right? Because I mean to kill yourself is one thing, but to end up killing yourself and your mother is something you cannot possibly do. So what she does now is surrender, right?

But if she believes in the will of God and if she has will, if she has faith that God is standing on her side, she'll have faith that her mother won't die. So she'll still be standing on top.

Okay, let's just say she has complete faith in God. The correct choice would be to surrender. Why? Because it's not just her, it's her mother. So if it's just her, it's her choice to make. But if it's her mother, then. Okay. So this is hard. But I want you guys to imagine this. It's really hard. But what's happened is the brother says you either surrender, Piccarda, or I will cut off our mother's head. Piccarda is like, fine, I surrender. What happens to the friend now?

Yeah. I think he'll feel

I think he'll feel really bad about it and maybe just, can he withdraw from the vow and release you from the I think if you're that friend it's very hard to go through the marriage, right?

Because what does a friend want to do?

At first he just wanted to get married but now he's But why do you want to get married?

For alliance. Yeah.

For power, right? Okay. So if you are a person hellbent on power and you see the scenario, you're like, "Screw this. I'm not getting married." Why would you do Because you're not gaining power.

You're You're losing all the power.

Why?

Not just that, but you're breaking that family apart, I guess. Yeah. You're not actually forming the alliance that you want.

What do they think of you?

The mother slayer.

Yes. And what do your soldiers think of you?

Yeah. Do you understand?

Okay. So it's really interesting how if you use your imagination, intuition, you just play this out.

But does the friend have a moral obligation to not go through with this? Like would it be moral of them to Right.

So this is a moral dilemma, right? Because they've already made a vow to each other that if we win this battle then I will marry Piccarda, right? So this is the point here. The point is nothing in life is as simple as it seems. There's complexity. And this is a question: given this hard choice, what do you believe to be the right choice and how do you come to this choice? And what Dante is saying is just your faith in God will lead you to the right choice.

As long as you have the faith in you, the things you do and God will lead you to the right answer. Okay. So in Dante, in life, there are no easy answers. If I were to say to you have faith in God, everything will work out, that's irresponsible. That's the wrong way to perceive. The major idea is that the world is extremely complex, often in life it's better to trust your intuition than to trust your logic. Does that make sense? Your intuition comes from your connection to God, which is an expression of your faith in God.

Since we're on the topic of hypotheticals, I would like to know if it's possible to be put into a situation where you have to betray a vow you made to God because you love God. So for example, say there is this monk who swore never to kill anyone. And there is a man who is invincible to everyone except the monk. Like you know how hypotheticals work by this point, and he's about to push a button that would destroy God. So what would you do as a monk? You love God so much you don't want God to be destroyed.

So my question also just, you know, I think people have their own perspective. You can believe your own god. I believe my god but is there possibility that God is almighty God? It means that it is truth. Everyone is just looking forward to the one truth or do people have their own imagination? So this is my question. So is there kind of almighty God there or just the god which is existing individually, you know?

Okay. So in the Divine Comedy the God that is presented is not the God of the Bible. It's not the God that you know. This is, in Platonic philosophy, what is called the monad, the source, the center, the soul of the universe. We will go into what this God is later on. Okay. So, [clears throat] okay. So what's really important is to appreciate that great poetry excites the imagination. It raises questions for us, and whatever problem arises, ultimately you can't say, hey, what would my parent want me to do, what would the Catholic Church want me to do. You have to look inside your heart and ask yourself, what does my heart want me to do, and that's often in life your best guide to the answer.

So a follow-up question. Since you said in relation to my hypothetical that you should act as what you think to be right, then we assume that the monk acted in what he thinks is right and he killed the man, betraying his vow. However, because he acted in the way that he thinks is right, he still has the most of God in him and he went to the uppermost layer of heaven. Let's say that. So what you are saying right now is Piccarda's actions don't matter that much. She only has to forgive herself and rationalize her actions, because if she rationalizes her actions as an act of love to God, then she would be able to ascend beyond her lowest sphere.

Wait, Professor. So does that mean that if I meditate enough I'll be able to kind of foresee the future and see who will win the 2026 World Cup or something?

I never said that.

Professor, do you mean that it's kind of butterfly effects? It means that I do something but I don't mean to do something for other people. For example, maybe I just fell in love with a girl but I don't know there's another girl who doesn't love me too. So it's got to hurt. Is that all right? So let me rephrase it in a way, okay? Everything you do is being recorded by the universe. There is an eternal memory of what you do in the universe. And this eternal memory is stored inside you as well.

So I'm curious about the relationship between this kind of memories and physical materials that matter.

Where's your memory stored?

Physical material.

Yeah. Where's your memory stored?

So in the brain.

Are you sure?

I am pretty sure.

Have you talked to a Yeah.

Yeah. Actually I chose a philosophy of cognitive science.

Okay. Someone Google for me, what evidence do we have that memories are stored inside the human brain? We have nothing. Google it for me. Yeah. Go ahead. Evidence that the memories are stored inside the brain.

Great. Can you just read it, Carol?

Okay. Memories. Memories are not video recordings stored in a single file. Instead, they're encoded by altering the physical connection, synapse, between neurons. When you learn something new, neurons form stronger or newer connections through a process called long-term anyway, NIH researchers uncover how the human brain separates da da da. Where are memories stored in the brain? Memories aren't stored in just one part of the brain. Different types are stored across different [clears throat] We don't know.

Okay. This is all sonic garbage for, like, we don't know. Most basic question is where are your memories stored? We don't know.

Technically we do know. So there's this very famous case of this person called HM. His hippocampus was damaged and so he no longer had long-term memory. And so to some extent through animal psych experiments we can understand that memories, at least the function of memory, is supported by the hippocampus in relation with the Okay.

So that example, that case study shows us that he cannot access long-term memory. Does that make sense? It does not prove that he no longer has long-term memory. It just means he lacks access to his long-term memory.

It's that he was not able to form long-term memories. And No, but I'm saying, how do you know for sure he's not able to form long-term memory?

It shows us he cannot access long-term memory. And it could be because he cannot form long-term memory. It could also mean that there's a disconnection between his long-term memory and his consciousness.

So I have further questions. If we assume that the memory is not stored in the brain, so what's the physical realizer of memory, or if memory doesn't necessarily need physical realizers? So what's the relationship between memories and physical Okay.

So there have been recent neuroscience studies that argue that our memory, our consciousness, is stored inside the universe. So think of the internet and our brains are just smartphones that access the internet. So our memories are stored on the cloud and what our brains do is access the cloud. Yes. But how would you possibly explain the fact that, say, a person who could form long-term memory before but he's getting older and older and he got a part of his hippocampus degraded and then he forgot a lot of things.

When you buy the computer the internet connection is very smooth. You can download things really fast, right? Over time, as you use it more and more, the connection becomes worse and worse because it's an old computer.

It's the hard, like the hard drive in the computer was broken or just with wear with time, Right?

And there are different types of memory, right? There's memory you can store in your computer. There are memories you can store on the cloud. There are memories you can access through other parts. And I want to add to the psychedelic question you raised before. So it's a chemical compound that actually, I studied neuroscience in college, it actually hits a certain receptor in your brain that causes a downward signaling effect that makes you meditate, makes you trip and all that. And this is a very physical or chemical thing.

So first of all there are different psychedelics, right, and what is interesting is depending on a psychedelic you'll have different experiences. So for example, if you're on ayahuasca, you'll see demons and spirits floating around.

Like the entities. Yeah, I've heard of that. But the majority of psychedelics, they actually hit similar regions or at least maybe they share 70% the same 5-HT2A receptors in your brain. That's the serotonin thing it hits. And yeah, there are lots of differences, like psilocybin, like LSD and all that, but the effects are more similar than they're different, would you agree? Okay, so again what's happening is that you're looking at the hardware issues and you completely ignore the software. Does that make sense? You're like, okay, this connection, this fiber optic connection, you are analyzing it and detailing how it works.

And the argument is that Our brains exist in order to anchor ourselves to this material world.

We have to believe that this material world is what's real. Because if your brain just can do whatever it wants, it's able to access all the information on the internet, the computer is going to explode, right?

So your computer has to be strategic about what information it absorbs in order to navigate the world, right? Ultimately, you just have to survive. You have to get food. You have to get along with other people. You have to have sex. You don't have children, right?

Yeah. And this is what. Yeah. So your brain is strategic in how it absorbs information and then how it actually perceives this information.

We'll say it filters out a lot of information. But when it Filters out 99% of all information.

Yeah. And when you take psychedelics, it actually reopens the gate of receiving more information.

And so you're now able to see all these different forces at work, including spiritual forces.

And also when your ego is shutting Right.

Exactly. Yeah. And so your ego shuts down and so you're able to see it from a more objective lens. Okay. Does that make sense?

So that you would say is actually more objective.

Okay. The point I will make is that the period we're living in today, in the year 2026 in China, is a unique period in human history. We go back to most of human history. Most cultures were animistic, shamanistic, meaning it was just assumed that there were ghosts and spirits all around you.

Yeah. Like trees have spirits and animals have spirits, but now we just use that as resources for our own needs.

Right? Do you understand? It's just weird to me how for the vast majority of human history, we just assumed that the universe is conscious, that there is a god, that there are spirits all around us. They manip, and these spirits manipulate us. And for the past 50 years, we're like, "No, it's just us and that's it." And we don't know how consciousness works. We have absolutely no idea where memories are stored. Yes.

So we cannot possibly explain how we're able to have these conversations, right? If in fact the brain is like a computer and there are synapses, then there should be a limit to the storage of the memory, right? But we know for a fact that there are certain people who can memorize Paradise Lost and recite it. There are people who can memorize the Divine Comedy and recite it.

Excuse me.

Right. And then we also know the human brain is able to take tremendous leaps of imagination which, if it were to translate into a computer, would require entire worlds of computer processing power in order to make the imaginary leaps that we make.

Right? That's why I think a full reductionist view of the human brain and the relationship between the physical and spiritual is not ideal, because yeah, I mean I study neuroscience. I know something about the brain but we still cannot just give up the spiritual part about it.

So again I go back to the Divine Comedy. If God doesn't exist, I have no idea how this was written. If God does not exist, I don't know how this was written. I just don't. How could one man over the course of 20 years without any computers by himself? Like literally by himself in his room, he's able to conceive all this. And then almost a thousand years later we're able to sit down together and read it and understand completely what he's trying to convey and not only that but we find what he's trying to convey beautiful and truthful.

Okay. All right. So I mean the reality is that we don't have a Dante in this age when we have access to all the world's information, when we have unlimited wealth. I mean, compared to Dante, we're all kind of stupid. I don't understand how this works.

So I think in this discussion it's really important to separate the inside from the outside. So if you're talking about the inside, if you're talking about the literary genius of the Divine Comedy, then I absolutely agree with what you said. I think it's an amazing work and I think if you're talking about God in the context of the Divine Comedy, then I absolutely agree with everything you said about divine inspiration. However, if you're going to take this to the outside, if you're going to take this to our present day, if you're going to take this to our brains, our neuroplasticity, then I have to say that I am not convinced by your arguments because I personally do not believe in God and because many others do not believe in God.

Sure. We're picking up at Canto 5, line. "Two things are of the essence when one vows a sacrifice: the matter of the pledge and then the formal compact. This last can never be annulled until the compact is fulfilled. It is of this that I have spoken to you so precisely. Therefore, the Hebrews found it necessary to bring their offering, although, as you must know, some of their offerings might be altered. As for the matter of the vow discussed above, it may be such that if one shifts to other matter, one commits no sin.

So the idea here is, take your vows seriously. So in her book The Human Condition, Hannah Arendt said that there are two actions that make us fundamentally human. There are two things that we do, that we can all do, that make us fundamentally human. The first is to make promises. Because when you make promises what you're doing is you're bonding yourself to another person but you're also bonding yourself to the future. You are imagining together a future. Does that make sense? So making promises is a very, very serious thing that only humans can do and which expresses our humanity.

That's making a promise.

What's the other thing that makes us truly human? Which expresses our humanity, which uplifts our humanity?

Language, speaking.

Animals can speak.

Animals can love.

Art, and imagination. No. What?

Yeah. I would have said to create.

No, there's something else that makes us uniquely human.

Self-reflection.

Maybe language, like a development.

An action, guys. Think of an action that you do with people, not by yourself, but with other people. The first, make promises, right? Making promises to affirm your individuality with another person and to imagine a better future. Maybe to lie, but it doesn't uplift, but it's something that humans Yeah.

Lying is a bad thing.

Something that is truly divine that we can do.

Can I say?

Sacrifice. What do you mean by that? The giving of oneself for another person's good but inconveniencing and potentially hurting. All right, that's close. But it's actually much more specific than that.

Okay. All right. All right. I mean it's something that happens every day, right? So for example, we're walking on the streets. I don't see you. I'm really walking really fast. So I bump into you and you fall down, right? And I say, "I'm sorry." You apologize.

And you forgive. Do you understand? These are the two things that make us truly human, to make promises and to forgive each other for breaking promises or for making mistakes. So this is a really important idea because you ask yourself, what makes a good society? What makes a just and happy society? And it's these two things. If people feel empowered to make promises and if people feel empowered to forgive each other, because often, guys, it's hard to forgive each other, then this is a good, just, moral, divine society.

Sure. Paradise, Canto 5, line 64. "Let mortals never take a vow in jest. Be faithful and yet circumspect, not rash as Jephthah was in offering his first gift. He should have said, 'I did amiss,' and not done worse by keeping faith."

Okay. This is really interesting. Does anyone know who Jephthah is? Okay. All right. So let me tell the story of Jephthah. This is in the Bible and it's in the Book of Judges. And Jephthah, he's obviously a leader of the Israelites. A leader of the Israelites. And he goes to war. He goes to battle and he says, "Dear God, I swear to you, if I win this battle, if you let me win this battle, I will give you as an offering the first person to walk in my door." Okay?

His daughter.

His daughter. He's completely screwed now, right? So what does he do according to the Bible?

Well, yeah. He kills the daughter. According to Beatrice, is this good or bad? No, it's not a gray area. What did she literally say?

And what "You should have said, 'I did amiss,' and not done worse by keeping faith."

He should have broken the vow. She said, "Don't make that vow, man. I don't care if you make that vow to God. If you have to kill your daughter, don't keep that vow, man." So this is a paradox, right? Someone help me understand this paradox.

Who?

It seems to be Jephthah. What's No, no, no.

So Jephthah is a reference. Beatrice is talking and she's explaining to Dante, take your vow seriously and don't be like Jephthah, but that's a paradox because Jephthah did take his vow seriously, right? So someone explain to me the reasoning here. Do you understand? It's a paradox. She said take your vows seriously and don't be like Jephthah who did take his vows seriously. Yes. Okay. Yes.

I think taking it seriously is understanding the weight of the vows you make, that when you make a vow, you know, taking vows seriously and don't simply make the wrong vow and make the vows in haste.

Okay. Yes.

Yeah. I agree. It's the same.

It doesn't help me understand the paradox here.

There's a paradox. Yes. So what I'm trying to say is I think that God instituted all of this understanding into us so that we will be able to follow his rules. So as I mentioned before, the first time when we were doing the hypothetical about Piccarda, I mentioned that if you truly believe in God then you should truly respect God's gifts and you should truly respect God's most precious gift which is free will. So maybe God instituted this understanding into us so that we will be able to not make promises such as this.

I still don't understand what you're trying to say. Explain to me the paradox where Beatrice said take your vow seriously and don't be like Jephthah who took his vows too seriously. It's a paradox. No, sorry. You first.

Could this be like a jab at the Catholic Yeah.

Well, everything Dante does is a jab at the Catholic Church, but yeah, can you explain?

Well, just saying that obviously there was Jephthah from the Bible and that he obviously followed through with this vow, but used sort of circumspection and rationality to look back and realize that it's wrong. And maybe at the time of writing a lot of religious people would have taken more of that view but he's showing that you need to sort of have more tact.

Okay. Yes.

Well my answer would be that Hannah Arendt said that the first thing that makes us human is to make promises and then the second thing was to forgive, forgive ourselves, and this is probably, to forgive ourselves is more important than making promises. So what Jephthah should have done is just forgive himself. Forgive himself for breaking the promise.

Yes, that's right. So that's what Beatrice wants. Like just, Jephthah, you did make a promise but you did it rashly, right? So just forgive yourself and not kill your daughter, man. Yes. So I think that we should understand this by looking at all the three works of Dante because I read Inferno first and I think that in Inferno if you commit treachery against kin that's not just, you know, murder, and that doesn't mean that you just belong to the seventh circle.

So I think that this is kind of what Beatrice is kind of saying. So compared to breaking a vow, if you kill your daughter, you're going to end up farther away from God, you're going to end up in hell. While if you break maybe a promise, you will probably end up like Piccarda. So that is still much better than ending up in hell.

But why is that so bad? Why would it be worse than breaking a vow to? I think it's the violence of it all and also because they are your own flesh and blood. So, you know, that would be kind of so, so let's do the hypothetical where, okay, the problem is that Jephthah had to kill the daughter. Let's just say the person coming in the door is not the daughter, but the aunt. Now it's okay, because it's not the daughter, it's the aunt.

I think if he would kill the aunt then he would probably still end up in the seventh circle or I think so as well.

Okay. So now it's not the aunt, it's the neighbor. That's okay now, right?

No, actually in Inferno, if you kill your neighbor, you also end up Okay, you're still bad.

Okay, let's give you the daughter. Okay, how about, I don't know, a stranger.

Yeah, the stranger.

That's still murder.

That's still. So no matter who he kills, he's still going to hell, right? So what's going on here? You say flesh and blood, but it's not flesh and blood. And it's not treachery, especially in this case. He's not.

Yeah. But in this case, because it's flesh and blood, that's why it's so bad. That's why he is the key example.

I understand, but I'm saying, let's just switch and say it's not the daughter. Let's just say it's a complete stranger. Is it okay now? Okay. All right. So this is hard. So what I'm going to do now is I'm going to present a, and let's just say I have a wife and I love my wife. My wife says to me, "If you truly love me, you will go steal a million dollars from the bank so I can buy a Porsche." This is just hypothetical. My wife would never do that.

Is it possible about the sabotage? I mean, just you love me, so you have to do something for me. Is it kind of the excuse because you want to take control over you? Is it possible?

What is my proper response? So you're saying my response should be, you know what, I'll go rob a bank and buy some jewelry. What's my response?

Oh yeah.

You'd say if you really love me, you can't force me to buy something for you.

Okay. [laughter] Okay. All right. So this is really key to understanding Dante. So my wife says to me, if you truly love me, you will go rob a bank and buy me a Porsche, right? Or go start a business and make a billion dollars.

Because it's to investigate why she would make such a request and try to get to the truth of it all.

Yeah. So I ask her, "Do you really want me to do it?" "Yes, I really want you to do it." I'm so stuck. Right. Maybe just Yeah.

Who? Sorry. Who?

Maybe just leave her.

I should leave her.

Yeah. Because that does mean that she doesn't actually love you, because the real love is unconditional.

Yeah. Actually, yeah. It's like I'm probably going to hold a similar opinion. Maybe we just leave her, because based on Plato's cave theory like you mentioned in the video, I think if she just cannot know what happens beyond the mirror then we never can wake up a person that does not want to be awake, you know. So we will possibly just leave her and find someone else that has a similar opinion. I was just saying you'd say no.

Yes. Okay. All right. So this is hard. But the right decision, the right course, is just to walk away from her. Right. Because the logic is this. If she's making you this request, like if you truly love me, go steal me a million dollars, right? Well, first of all, she doesn't love you, right? She can't possibly love you if she's making this request because if you go rob a bank, they're going to put you in prison, right? You're not going to get them. You're not going to go buy the car.

That's exactly what I meant to say. So if you truly understand God, then you would never make such a vow. It's like a vaccine. God has put in us the understanding that we would not make such a vow. That's the vaccine to prevent us from doing something like this.

Okay. Yeah. But then why do people make these vows?

Because they have not taken the vaccine, because they have not been in contact with God. Therefore, such a vow is ungodly.

How do they break their connection to By understanding themselves more fully.

Like I said, God made provisions for us and it's up to us to discover these provisions. It's up to us to make ourselves his vessel. Is that what you're saying?

No, no, no. I'm saying, how did we lose our connection to God? You're saying we lost our connection to God, but how do we lose it? Why would we lose it? It makes no sense.

Why did Jephthah make this vow? Why did Jephthah make this vow? What's the reason?

I think he was in a really hard to win battle and he wanted God to really help.

He wanted power.

You understand?

Yeah. He wanted power and that's what moved him away from God. You understand? When you want power, you want worldly power, that's what severs the connection to. You've always had it, but you lose it when you want power.

Can I ask before we move on? So life seems to be fraught with minefields of vows that people can make on your behalf. So we've got Piccarda's brother has made a vow on her behalf. And I understand she ends up in the bottom level of heaven essentially because she had 90% faith instead of 100% faith and she was a bit fearful. But so Jephthah's daughter has this vow essentially bestowed upon her. And you said that God ignores vows when they're made incorrectly, like sinfully or ungodly. I'm getting the wording wrong, but there is some connection here with Piccarda and her brother because the vow was made for power there as well.

Yes. Okay. So, sorry. Why would Jephthah be in Inferno and not in Paradise? Do you guys know why?

Okay. Yeah. I'm answering your question. Okay. But first my first question is, do you guys know where Jephthah would be? He's actually not. So where would Jephthah be in the Divine Comedy? Which level? Inferno, Purgatory, or Paradise?

He killed his daughter.

No, he's actually in Inferno because he's not a Christian. He was born before the time of Jesus. Therefore, he could not become a Christian. Therefore, he cannot access heaven. That's point one. Point two is, where would Jephthah's daughter be? You guys Why Purgatory and not anywhere else?

I mean following that logic, has not known Jesus, but not knowing how she has acted in her own life. I'm just assuming that she has not killed anybody else. And so she was killed against her presumably against her own will and even if it's her will she was the victim.

The daughter. But why the daughter?

Because she understands the importance of the vow. She wants to keep it despite that she has to sacrifice.

Yes. Okay. If you read the Bible, it's clear the daughter is the hero of the story because she was willing to sacrifice herself to ensure her father keeps his vow, right? Because if you read the Hebrew Bible, the worst thing you can do is not keep your vow to God. So she would actually be in Okay.

Does that make sense? So this is a paradox of the Divine Comedy where there's a rule that if you're not a Christian, you can't be in Paradise. You can only be in Purgatory or in Inferno. But because of the nobility of her sacrifice, she gets elevated to Paradise. Right. And so it doesn't logically make sense, but it makes intuitive sense. Does that make sense? Yes.

Part where you said the sacrifice, the daughter made a sacrifice.

Okay. The story is this.

The story is that Jephthah, to win a war because he's leader of the Israelites. And the Israelites have lots of enemies because it's the Middle East, right? And they win this battle. But before the battle, Jephthah says, "If I win this battle, I swear to God, I will offer as sacrifice whoever walks in my door." He makes this vow. He goes home. The first one to walk in the door is his daughter. Now he's screwed. Because either you kill your daughter or you defy God, right? So he is completely, utterly screwed.

So you mean willingness is the necessary if it can be, you know, uplevel into the Excuse me.

The willingness, because you said you will to die. It means that you can go to Paradise. Is that what you No.

No. I just said a selfless act of love is what elevates you to Paradise. Not the will, not the desire, but the action itself that's driven by the will and the desire. Yes.

But there should be acts of love before That's why she's in heaven.

She's not a Christian. She's a Hebrew. She doesn't believe in Jesus. But if God could put her anywhere, God would put her in Paradise. In fact, when we read, what you will discover is there are quite a few pagans in Paradise. So this is subversive because the rule is unless you're a Christian, you can't go to Paradise. You read the Divine Comedy, there are some pagans in Paradise. Does that make sense? Yes.

Isn't offering herself some sort of suicide and isn't that a sin?

Yeah. For the Catholic Church, suicide is a sin. But these are the Hebrews. These are the Israelites. So this is a different cultural context.

"He should have said, 'I did amiss,' and not done worse by keeping faith. And you can find that same stupidity So you see the paradox in the sentence, right?

Doing worse by keeping faith.

How does that make any sense? Right? "And you can find that same stupidity in the Greeks' chief, when her fair face made Iphigenia grieve and made the wise and made the foolish weep for her when they heard tell of such a rite."

Okay, so this is also a really interesting story. So she's saying that there are two really stupid people in this world. First is Jephthah, the other is Agamemnon. So this is the Trojan War and what starts the Trojan War of course is that Paris of Troy steals Helen of Sparta, and so Helen is the most beautiful woman in the world and all the Greeks fight for Helen and it seems like a war is about to break out among the Greeks, and so what the Greeks decide to do is, you know what, we'll just cast lots and whoever wins will marry Helen and everyone else will fight for Helen if someone tries to steal Helen.

Yeah, I think if mother Clytemnestra revenged on a If your daughter were killed by your husband, what would you do?

You'd probably go kill the guy. Clytemnestra plots this vengeance against Agamemnon. And so when he comes home, Clytemnestra kills him for killing Iphigenia. So could Agamemnon have known this?

Paradise, Canto 5, line 73. "Christians, proceed with greater gravity. Do not be like a feather at each wind, nor think that all immersions wash you clean. You have both Testaments, the old and new. You have the shepherd of the church to guide you. You need no more than this for your salvation."

Okay. What is she saying here? What she's saying? Yes. It's important to keep your vows to God, but at the same time use your brain.

You don't need the priest.

You don't need a priest. But what do you need?

The Bible. Do you understand? What are you not allowed to do at this time if you're Catholic?

To read the Bible.

Read the Bible by yourself. You're not allowed to do that. And what Dante is saying is, hey, if you really want to understand what is true, read the Bible for yourself. Yes.

So this is something I'm really confused about. So first you said that we should follow our intuition because our intuition comes from God. And then you said that we should use our brains. And then you said that we should read the Bible. However, if we presume that God is above all of this, if we presume that God does not need to make himself manifest in such things as the Bible or even the Catholic Church, then what is God? How should we get closer to God?

Okay. All right. So first let's ask a question. Have you read the Bible before? Okay. What's the problem with reading the. There's loads of versions.

Excuse me.

Loads of versions. Loads and loads.

It's pretty complicated, man. So what's the only way you can actually read the Use your intuition, man.

You understand? Try reading the Bible using logic. Good luck with that one. What's the contradiction here? What Dante is saying is, okay, yes, I understand that you made this vow to God and you want to know what to keep and what to break. Use your intuition. How? Read the Bible, listen to the priest. Once you have these two elements, go to church, listen to the priest, read the Bible. Then this will be the path to your salvation. So what he's really saying is use your own judgment, use your intuition, use your faith.

So what you are basically saying here, back to my inside-outside metaphor, what you're basically saying here is that we have to use our intuition but our intuition is not entirely of our own control because we cannot use our intuition to forgive ourselves of everything we have ever done and therefore our intuition is something outside of us and therefore God is a concrete existence somewhere outside of Okay.

All right. So let's try to make this simple. It might be wrong but let's try to make it simple. Your intuition is ultimately your connection to the divine, to the universe. Because where does your intuition come from? It comes from the source. But there are ways in which to strengthen this connection. Knowledge, reading, inquiry, debate, love, faith. Does that make sense? So live a life of love, faith, inquiry, pursuit of knowledge and this will strengthen your intuition.

Okay. All right. So what's happening of course is that Dante and Beatrice are traveling through the cosmos. They're going from sphere to sphere. They are now in a new sphere and the person they meet is Justinian. Justinian was emperor of the Byzantine Empire. Probably the greatest emperor of the Byzantine Empire, and he will now talk about the history of Rome, which we'll read in the next canto. Question: there's a word here that shouldn't be in the Divine Comedy. Weird word. If you are a Christian, if you're a practicing Christian, you hear this word and you're like, what?

Holy. No. Holy is a word that you would want in heaven. Yes. Born. No. There's a word that's like, what is it doing here in heaven? You're like, this is wrong.

Yeah. Well, I mean that can only be the reference, right? Because Christianity is monotheistic, meaning just one God. The Greeks are polytheistic, meaning many gods, right? So the idea I'm trying to convey is that there's a subversive quality to the Divine Comedy. You can choose to just read it as a Christian text. And quite honestly, most people do read it as a Christian text. And I point this out because in the next canto, with Justinian, we read the entire history of the Catholic Church.

We see this as a humanistic perspective. Like we often say modern-day celebrities are called stars, right? And sometimes we say gods of the literary canon and sometimes we almost worship the greats in our history. And can this be seen as this pioneer of the humanistic perspective that humans can be great in and of themselves, even those who are not great through religion, like pagans, like Archimedes.

Exactly. And what you say is the Renaissance. What makes the Renaissance a revolution in human affairs is that as you say it celebrates the human spirit and how the human spirit can be a force for innovation and good in the universe and this is unique in Europe at this time. And it starts with Dante. It is Dante that launches the Renaissance as well as modernity. It is Dante that promotes the idea of the individual that we take for granted today but which was revolutionary back in his time.

And that'd be great. But the point I make is, unless you read it in Italian by yourself, You'll never truly understand it.

Okay. That's point one. Point two is we discussed this before but in the poem there's a lot of numerology and mathematics because you think about it, for Dante mathematics is the underlying truth of the universe. Mathematics, numerology is what provides the structure of the universe and there's actually a lot of numerology and mathematics within the Divine Comedy. The most basic example is a structure where it's 34 cantos in Inferno, 33 in Purgatory and 33 in Paradise. And also if you look at the structure of the poem, it's three lines by three lines by three lines.

The Trinity. Okay, do you understand? So what Dante is doing is he is using mathematics in order to portray the divine structure of the universe, to express its intent, sorry, its intentionality. Its design. So unless you really study the mathematics, it's again hard to understand the Divine Comedy. We're not going to do that because a lot of mathematics is in Italian. Mathematics would also include syllables and the rhymes and all that. So we can't do the numerology as well. The third thing that we're missing that's very important for the Divine Comedy is astrology.

Personally, based on my understanding, I would argue that the original meaning of the word occult is actually "the hidden," and the occult can refer to more than angels and demons. In fact, if we're referring to that, we often refer to them using, for example, demonology. So the occult can also refer to other topics.

Yeah. Right. The occult just means what's hidden from us or what is esoteric. Yes. But most people refer to it as just talking to demons and angels. And clearly Dante spends a lot of time talking to demons and angels, right? And the last thing I would say is just magic. Magic, manifestation.

Do you remember the first time you read the Divine Comedy and how it felt and Yeah.

I had no idea what I was reading. I mean, I started reading the Divine Comedy about four years ago for the first time. I didn't read this at Yale. I think you have to take Italian to read the Divine Comedy. I can't remember. And for many, many months I didn't understand anything. I would read the words and I don't understand what's going on. I would watch videos. I think I watched like 100 hours of videos explaining to me what the Divine Comedy is.

Okay. I agree with that. Yeah. What I'll also say is that I really think the Divine Comedy is the word of God. It's the universe speaking through Dante. And that's why I say it's perfect. I've not been able to find a flaw in the Divine Comedy. I mean look at the beauty of its structure. Look at the beauty of its language. Look at the economy of its ideas. We're able to take one sentence and have hours and hours of discussions based on this.

Napoleon. Yes. Napoleon Bonaparte. So that's a long way. This is about 1800. So the Holy Roman Empire lasts for a long, long time and from the perspective of dominant Europeans this is all the stability, the continuity, it's all because of the will of God. Now over the course of this time as I said Christianity will develop and Christianity will come to replace the Holy Roman Empire as the most powerful force in the world. So it starts of course with the birth of Jesus in about 4 BCE.

Okay. But there's actually a much more reason. Yes.

Because therefore he can save all the human By how?

By salvation. Okay, so the main reason is the crucifixion, right? Doesn't make sense, guys, crucifixion. So the idea is that his sacrifice only makes sense if he could die. You understand? God, you crucify him, who cares, that's nothing. So he needed to have a human element in order for his sacrifice to be worthwhile, to be worthy of redeeming us. So that's one major theological debate and quite honestly it still goes on today. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of different sects of Christianity arguing about this. But the big, really big question is the relationship between God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus, right?

So does Dante believe that Jesus is God or not? Or does he like... how many parts does he agree with the Catholic... Okay, that's a really good question and the answer is we'll never know. Dante is writing at a time in history where you could be killed for defying the Catholic Church, for committing heresy. Okay. So, a lot of things he does, it's going to be subtle. It's going to be nuanced. We'll never truly know his true feelings, but if I had to guess, I would say that Dante, in his interpretation of the Bible, in his interpretation of Jesus, he felt that Jesus was a great spiritual leader who was divine in nature, but so is Dante.

So this is the official Catholic, right? I'm not making a comment if this is true or false. I'm just saying this is what the Catholic Church teaches its followers.

Okay. Am I right here? Okay. If you're Catholic and I get it wrong, please let me know. Okay, I present this to you because Justinian will say the same thing. Okay, but I'm putting this in simple terms so we understand what he's saying, and then Dante is going to argue against this. All right. Okay, so let's go back to Jesus. All right. So something to keep in mind about Jesus is, if you really want to understand the essence of Jesus, there is a part of the Bible that I think is pure poetry. It itself has to be divinely inspired, just like the Divine Comedy, and I think we should read it together. Okay, it's called the Sermon on the Mount. Okay, so Carol will read the Sermon on the Mount. Okay, just so we can understand who Jesus is and how he... We don't have to read all of it.

Okay. All right. Stop. Okay. So, you can hear the poetry. You can hear the beauty and the truth. Now, this is very powerful. I think it moves every one of us today. Okay? Sometimes I just cry hearing this. But this is especially powerful 2,000 years ago when Jesus was alive. Why? Because the Roman Empire was really, really evil. The Roman era marked a time of tremendous inequality, where few people had everything and where most people were... So in this time, what do you do? Well, if you revolt like Spartacus, they'll come and they'll crucify you and your family, right?

I would have to say that while this is from a modern-day perspective true, I think it is a slightly anachronistic perspective, because in the age of the Romans, wealth inequality was a thing that was taken as granted in society, and also Christianity is not free of its wealth inequality, especially after its legalization, and also Roman slavery was not as widespread or as cruel as we think. Many Roman citizens would enter slavery as a way to free themselves from their debt. So I'm saying that while all of this is true from a present-day and from a Christian perspective, it is slightly Okay.

So let me ask you this question. Let's just say that you are a young person living in the world today. The baby boomers have everything. You went to school. Now you have $100,000 in debt.

Again, I think this, well, this is absolutely true on present day and it highlights some of the most poignant questions that we face in our present day. I think it's a slightly anachronistic perspective if we apply it to the Roman Empire.

Okay. All right. Fine. Okay. But I'm just saying, like, maybe a thousand years ago we'd be like, "Wow, young people in the year 2026 have it all, man. They have cars, they have computers, they have air conditioning. They must be the happiest young people ever in human history, right? You guys have porn in your computer, right? You guys can fly to Beijing and take this class. What are you complaining about?"

It's harder for the camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven.

Exactly. Okay. That is Jesus. That is a spirit of Jesus that Dante recognizes. And when Dante talks about St. Francis of Assisi, right, he will conjure up, he will help us remember that this was the real Jesus, a man who taught people the path to salvation is through your spirituality. It is through kindness, through generosity, through love. Okay, that is the Jesus that I think Dante understood. Yes.

But wasn't Dante an aristocrat himself? Like someone who had power and money and stuff like Hey, sorry.

What's your point here?

Well, I mean, if he wanted to be like Jesus then, or like spread his message, then he didn't live exactly that life. He lived a life of Like power, right?

Or like he was an aristocrat himself. So first of all, I mean, Dante came from a good family but he was not an aristocrat by the standards of Florence. Okay. Also let me ask you this question. Was St. Francis of Assisi, you know, the man who became the founder of the Franciscan movement who gave up all wealth, was he born rich or poor? Do you know? Guess. He was very, very rich. His family was very, very rich. And that's why what he did was so significant. Right?

This isn't related to Jesus necessarily. So what I think Dante is doing, I think it's actually pioneering, it's actually an early version of Protestantism. So a kind of place where you return to God, where you return to Jesus instead of returning to the Catholic Church. So my personal opinion about the Catholic Church is that despite preaching the gospel of poverty, despite condemning having a lot of money and using it to do evil things, it actually enabled a lot of the power structures that allowed medieval European society to become so unequal and so feudal.

Yes. Okay. All right. So that's true. But something that you guys don't appreciate is there was always opposition towards the Catholic Church throughout history. Do you understand? The Protestant movement was not new. It was always there. Okay. So there were two major oppositions to the church. Okay. The first argument is that the church is too worldly. Meaning that these priests, these bishops were filthy, filthy rich. And, like, sorry, but the apostles, you know, they swore to poverty. Jesus swore to poverty. So that's betraying the church. So throughout this history, okay, it's been covered up, but throughout this history, there were all these movements throughout Europe that criticized the church for corruption and who sought to return to a life of poverty.

So I think, again, I'm just picking out words, picking hairs here, but I'm saying that Satan made us eat the fruit. Satan did not make us do anything. Satan tempted us to eat the fruit and we did it of our own free will. Because if Satan made us eat the fruit and if we really became slaves to him, then Satan would be more powerful than God because he could subvert God's most holy, most precious gift, which is our free will, which doesn't make any sense, Right?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's right. So our free will chose to become slaves to Satan. Does that make sense? Because when we became tempted by Satan, we turned away from God and became like Satan.

But that is assuming that Satan is as powerful as God and Satan has the right to receive the gift of reward.

Okay? So look, I'm not arguing about theology, okay? I'm not arguing about these ideas. I'm just saying what people believed at this time and what the church taught at this time. And because I need to explain to you why Dante is doing what he's doing. Okay. I'm not going to argue this is right or wrong. I'm just saying this is what people believed at this time. Does that make sense, guys? Okay. All right. So, this is the background. And so, we're now going to read Dante together.

Okay. So Constantine of course is a person who makes Christianity the official religion of Rome. The eagle is the Roman Empire itself. Okay. The eagle is a standard of the Roman Empire. When you see the word eagle it means the Roman Empire. The ancient one who wed Lavinia is Aeneas. Okay.

"A hundred years and more, the bird of God remained near Europe's borders, close to the peaks from which it first emerged. Beneath the shadow of the sacred wings, it ruled the world from hand to hand until that governing changing became my task. Caesar I was and am Justinian, who through the will of primal love I feel removed the vain and needless from the laws. But before I grew attentive to this labor, I held that but one nature and no more was Christ. And in that faith I was content. But then the blessed Agapetus, he who was chief shepherd, with his words turned me to that faith which has truth and purity.

All right. So the background is this. Okay. Justinian is emperor of the Byzantine Empire, the eastern Roman Empire. And at this point in history the Roman Empire is divided into the eastern half and the western half. Okay. It's basically split in two. And because it's split in two, there are many different variants of Christianity. Most variants do not accept the Holy Trinity. Okay? So, Justinian goes on this holy crusade to conquer and unite all the Roman Empire and enforce the Holy Trinity on everyone, and he succeeds. And his general at this time was Belisarius.

Okay, we don't have time to go into this history, but what he's doing is summarizing the history of the Roman Republic, which then gives birth to the Roman Empire. Okay, keep on. "And what it did when carried by courageous Romans who hurried to encounter Brennus, Pyrrhus and other princes and cities, through this Torquatus and Quintius, who was named for his disheveled hair, the Decii and Fabii gained the fame I gladly honor. That standard brought the pride of Arabs low when they had followed Hannibal across those alpine rocks from which, Po, you descend.

The rise of Rome was so quick that it had to be divine. Then with Rome comes Julius Caesar, who will now birth the Roman Empire by conquering Gaul, by conquering everyone basically. And it's all been pre-ordained. Okay? Nothing can stop it. Not the Carthaginians, not even civil war can stop God's plan. Keep on going. "Because of what that standard did with him who bore it next, Brutus and Cassius howl in hell, and grief seized Modena and Perugia.

Okay. So the third Caesar is Tiberius Caesar, right? The first is Julius Caesar, Augustus Caesar, and the third is Tiberius Caesar. Tiberius Caesar is important because this is during the time of Jesus, right? Jesus is now working as a prophet during this time. Keep on going.

"For the true justice that inspires me granted to it, in that next Caesar's hand, the glory of avenging his own wrath. Now, marvel here at what I show to you."

Sorry. The glory of avenging his own wrath refers to the crucifixion of Jesus, right? God is angry at us. In order to dissipate his anger, he must sacrifice his only son, Jesus. Okay, this is what it refers to. Keep on going.

"Now, marvel here at what I showed to you. With Titus, afterward, it hurried toward avenging vengeance for the ancient sin."

So, Titus is the general that will destroy the Jewish rebellion and burn down the Second Temple. Okay? And the Catholic Church teaches people at this time that this is vengeance for the Jews' betrayal of Jesus. Keep on going.

"And when the Lombard tooth bit Holy Church, then Charlemagne, under the eagle's wings, through victories he gained brought help to her. Now you can judge those I condemned above and judge how much men have offended, have become the origin of all your evils. For some oppose the universal emblem with yellow lilies. Others claim that emblem for party. It is hard to see who is worse. Let Ghibellines pursue their undertakings beneath another sign. For those who sever this sign and justice are bad."

Okay. So now what Justinian is saying is that in this time people have misused the legacy of the Roman Empire to conduct their own wars for political gain. Okay. So I said before that with the birth of the Holy Roman Empire the church becomes embroiled in European geopolitics and this leads to wars throughout this period. Dante is forced into these wars because right now in history, about the year 1300, the Ghibellines and the Guelphs are at war with each other. The Guelphs support the Pope, the Ghibellines support the Holy Roman Empire, or the other way around.

"And let not this new Charles strike at it with his Guelphs, but let him fear the claws that stripped a more courageous lion of its hide. The sons have often wept for a father's fault. And let the son not think that God will change the emblem of his force for Charles's lilies. This little planet is adorned with spirits whose acts were righteous, but who acted for the honor and the fame that they would gain. And when desires tend toward earthly ends, then so deflected rays of the true love mount toward the life above with lesser force."

Okay. So this is very similar to the message of Jesus. Okay. What Jesus taught his followers is all this wealth that we see in this world, it's a false wealth. It's nothing. It's poverty. The true wealth is with God. So do what is right and you'll be rewarded in heaven. And that's what Dante is saying for Justinian. There was a man, Romeo, who was very much like Dante, who was participating in these wars, but because he chose to do good the people turned against him, and even though he suffered on earth, he was exiled, he was impoverished, just like Dante, ultimately he was given tremendous reward in heaven.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think Jesus is trying to cure himself just because he wants to show that he's really the son of God, because some people keep doubting him, and even the Judas, you know, the disciple, right, who just, you know, because of the silver coin, right, he just tried to betray Jesus. Maybe Jesus wants people to know that he is the true God.

Yeah, and certain denominations teach this, yes, to prove that he is truly divine because he can resurrect himself.

Sacrificing your own son has to be like the biggest representation of love, and that's the love that God has towards us.

Okay. Could you elaborate on that?

As in there's nothing harder that someone could do than sacrifice their own son. But the fact that God did it for us to clean us from our sins shows how much he loves us.

But he was willing to show us.

Okay. He showed us. Okay. Yes. Okay. That's actually Dante's explanation as well. Yes.

I have like two questions. The first one is that Jesus sacrificed to prove that he is divine. So if he proves that he is divine through a concrete thing like rising up from the dead, then that's not faith anymore, is it? That's just, I saw him rise from the dead. It's a fact. And the second question is that God sacrificed his son. So as God's son, Jesus is both human and divine. And because he is part human, he has free will and therefore he can choose whether or not to be sacrificed.

Right. No, you're exactly right. No, no, you're right. Jesus did sacrifice himself. It was his choice to sacrifice himself. You're right. Okay. But the idea is that Jesus and God are the same thing. Right. Okay. All right. So let's read this. Okay. And this is a really powerful section. I want to make sure we appreciate the logic here. Okay, we can skip the first three lines because that's just Latin. Okay.

Okay. All right. Okay. This is a really important sentence. Okay. What it means is God should be angry at us for betraying him, for eating the fruit when he told us not to. Okay, this is just vengeance. He should be angry at us.

Okay, stop. Who is this man?

Yeah, it's Adam, obviously. Come on. Right. Okay, keep on going. "For this mankind lay sick in the abyss of a great error for long centuries until the Word of God willed to descend to where the nature that was sundered from its maker was united to his person by the sole act of his eternal love."

Okay. So now there's a separation between God and us. And the question is how do you reconcile? Right? There's anger now. God is angry at us and we basically screwed up and we don't even know how to ask for forgiveness. Okay, so this is a schism. This is a separation. Okay, keep on going.

Okay? So, we were born good. Okay? And we know we're born good because in the Bible, it says that when God created man, God breathed the spark of life into us. Okay? So, there's an essence of God within us. Therefore, we are born good. But because of free will, we can choose to do stupid things. We can choose a path of evil. Once you pick a path of evil, what often happens is it becomes like a snowball, okay? Rolling down and accumulating. So we do one stupid act, then we do another, then we do more evil, it keeps on going.

"Line 40. Thus, if the penalty the cross inflicted is measured by the nature he assumed, no one has ever been so justly stung. Yet none was ever done so great a wrong if we regard the person made to suffer, he who had gathered in himself that nature. Thus from one action issued differing things. God and the Jews were pleased by one same death. Earth trembled for that death and heaven opened. You need no longer find it difficult to understand when it is said that just vengeance was then avenged by a just court.

Okay. Right. Okay. So this is the question. Okay. If you are God and you are infinite and eternal, why do you have to pick a particular way in which an innocent man, Jesus, was punished? He could choose to be punished, but it seems unjust. Okay, it seems wrong.

Okay, so what she's saying here, this is really important, is you don't understand because you don't love enough. If you become a parent and you love your child unconditionally, then you understand why God had to do what he did. Okay? God is eternal and infinite. There are a million solutions and he picked the best possible solution. And if it sounds stupid to us, if it sounds wrong to us, it's not his problem. It's our problem. It's because we don't understand love enough. Keep on going.

Stop. Okay. All right. Okay. So, do you guys understand what he's saying? What Beatrice is saying is that God is perfect. God is pure love. God is all generosity, all forgiveness, all truth. And we were created in his image. And so we share all his qualities. The problem is we have free will and we are immature. And the moment we choose to sin, we turn away from God and therefore we lose our divinity. And once we pick this path, we can only compound our own mistakes, our own evil. Okay, does that make sense?

Yeah, go ahead first and then you. Okay, We ate from the knowledge.

But what is that? What motivated us?

Yes. And then you, like, I know you know. Okay. But yeah, go. So basically, like, there was the Garden of Eden and there was Satan. He turned into a snake and he was like, "Hey Eve, eat this apple." And Eve, It wasn't an apple, by the way.

But why do we do it? Why do we eat the Because we...

Well, the problem that God has with it is that we disobeyed him. He told us don't eat the fruit and we ate the fruit.

Why was he angry at disobedience? Sorry, go ahead. The fact that we want to become God.

Exactly. Do you understand? The problem was not disobedience. The problem was a serpent told Eve, you eat this food and you'll become like God. Meaning we want to overthrow God. Okay? This is the original sin, not the stupid fruit. Okay? Who cares if you eat the fruit? The original sin is our hearts became evil. Our hearts became so evil and vicious that we wanted to kill God and become God ourselves. That is the issue. Yes.

So where did it say that we want to kill God? Like this is monotheism. I know, but like where do you say we want to kill God? We want to be equal with God. That does not mean we have to kill Yeah.

Sorry. Just like she said, the saying, you don't want to kill him, just you can't replace them. You can be like that but not Guys.

Guys, you need to understand something. When we are working in historical context, do you understand, at this time in history what the Catholic Church teaches its followers, its flock, is that the original sin is our pride. Okay, this is historical fact. This started with the Bible and in the Bible it literally says that the serpent tempted Eve to eat the fruit because it would make her like God. It's literally in the Bible in Genesis. Okay. Then Augustine will take this and say the original sin is our pride, and this becomes the official doctrine of the church.

Okay. All right. Okay. So this is beautiful. Okay. But this is the logic. The logic is we can't forgive ourselves. So God must redeem us. But God has to redeem us in a way that changes us for the better. And so he has his son. The thing about his son is that it's a dual nature, right? Both man and God. Okay? So the fact that a man, Jesus, is going to redeem us will help save us. Okay? Because now we are engaged in our own salvation through Jesus.

Okay, so there's a million solutions. Okay, and God spent a thousand years, 2,000 years, who knows, thinking of a solution. And his answer is, well, first of all, I can't just forgive these guys. They learn nothing. And I need them to do it themselves, but they're humans and they're kind of lame, so they can't do it themselves. So, the only solution is for the son of God to become man. Okay, that's the only solution. A million possible scenarios, there's only one scenario that could possibly redeem us, and it's for the son of God to become man and to be sacrificed.

"Verse 121. Now to give all your wishes full content, I go back to explain one point so that you too may see it plainly as I do. You say, 'I see that water, see that fire and air and earth and all that they compose come to corruption and endure so..."

All right. Stop. Okay. All right. So what I'm going to do now is help us see the genius of the sacrifice of Jesus. Okay? So I'm going to give you a thought experiment. The thought experiment is: you are a mother or a father, who cares? You're a parent. Okay? And you have a daughter named Eve. And one day you bring home a dog. Okay.

Yeah. If in that case the girl does not like to test it because she knows that he's the only one.

So the dog is dead. He's already dead.

Yeah. So, what do you do?

What do you do?

I mean, in the context of Jesus, you punish yourself in a way. So, they would see that what you did hurt them more. And so to forgive them, you have to punish yourself.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, that's the logic. Okay. All right. So, like, because you're kind of screwed. Okay. If you don't do anything, what's Eve going to do next? Kill more animals. Okay. So, you cannot do nothing. You got to be like, I forgive you, Eve. Oh, you're just a kid. Don't worry about it. Okay. You have to do something. Okay. But if you punish her, that proves to her you love the dog more.

Right? So, anything you do, you're kind of screwed. So, your only solution, okay, of a million possibilities, is you punish yourself. You hit yourself to show Eve, I have to punish you, but... and you punish yourself. And when she sees that, what does she think? She thinks my father, my mother truly, truly loves me. And will she ever kill an animal again? No. Okay. Because she's seen what will happen if an animal dies, the parents will suffer. And so she's convinced by the love of the parent and therefore she's now fully committed to loving her parents to the best of her ability.

I would send Eve to therapy. Like I think this is a very absolute situation. Like it's either punishment or it's allowance. Like why couldn't there be a middle? Why couldn't there be education in the middle?

Okay. You send Eve to therapy. Okay. What does a therapist tell Eve? I'm not a therapist, but therapy has been proven to work on a range of conditions, including sociopathy.

Okay. But, like, we're just doing this as a thought experiment. Okay. All right. You know what? I'm gonna call the police and the police are going to come and arrest Eve. Oh, you know what? Screw this. I'm going to call the therapist and the therapist will come and solve this problem with me. Will this make things worse or Well, the therapist would probably side with Eve and then they would, like, start to call the dad a bad parent or something.

No, no, no. What's the therapist going to do? Have you guys been to a therapist? Therapists don't do that.

They're going to interrogate Eve and that's probably going to make her very... They'll probably, a therapist will probably make her take pills. Okay.

Right. And that's a punishment, in which case what does it tell Eve about her parents?

Her parents don't love her, man.

Right. They're like, I don't do this crap. I'm going to send her to a therapist. Yeah. No, I think, to be honest, I think in the context of this metaphor, that is a really irresponsible way of thinking because as a parent, I am not a psychological expert and I do not have the resources to help my child. To help my child, I have to give my money and give my time to someone who is more licensed, who is more qualified than I am to help my child.

Your what? But your parents know you the best. Like your parents should be the ones that could help you. You know, the random stranger, like, I mean Doesn't work here in China, bro.

I don't think this is really relevant. I think that's the rational course of Yeah, but the point is not about what's rational to do.

It's about, like, Eve is trapped in this dilemma where she believes that if you send me to therapy, if you punish me by just a little bit in any means anyway, it shows to me that you don't love me. Yeah, that's her logic, you know. Then you kind of, in her logic, you have, you know, But how is therapy a punishment for her?

It is a punishment. Whether you slap her, you scold her, you guarantee that if you kill a dog, Okay, and you go to therapy, they're going to make you take pills.

I guarantee you,

Okay, and that may not be the best Yes.

But as a parent, do we take this logic as permanent? Do we accept that, or do we need to kind of, you know, do something on our own behalf to try to tweak that logic or change that logic?

I'm actually confused, like, there must be something wrong with Eve beforehand, like your education, right? For her to be able to kill the dog. This is just Again, we need to use our imagination.

But I do, look, I do have kids. So it's, which is why this is particularly concerning for me. Like I would be the first guy to try to sit down with Eve and try to understand where she comes from and then we go from there. Like maybe, you know Listen, I have three kids and any of them could pull this crap on us.

I mean, like, that's just how kids... I mean, like, I'm not saying my kids are going to do this but I'm saying, like, I can imagine them doing this thing, doing this crap on me. Yeah.

So I noticed that a lot of you have, like, issues with outsourcing help for your kids. Well, what I have to say is your kid needs food and your kid needs water, right? So, as a parent, are you going to farm the food yourself and get the water from the river yourself because you want to do everything for your kid because you're the one who knows them best? Of course not.

But I don't understand why you're convinced that a therapist knows exactly what he or she is doing.

You're convinced that a stranger with a PhD knows more about the child than you, the Yes.

I'm convinced that they know more than you. I'm not saying that they know everything. I'm convinced that they know more about the child's behavior, behavioral patterns than you do.

Okay. But then there's a question of risk, right? Like the therapist has different skin in the game than you as the parent. So naturally, even though the therapist might have the set of tools, the application of those tools coupled with the risks you take as the parent to the kid, I think in the end it still falls on the parent.

Okay. Are you okay with this scenario? Okay. Let's just say God's like, you know what, I really shouldn't send my son to crucify himself. That's kind of stupid. I don't know what I'll do. I'll create this alien species. Okay, that is infinitely wise. I'll have them come and rule over humanity. Are you okay with that?

It depends on what way they're winning over you. The thing about therapy that most people don't realize is that the therapist doesn't force you to believe anything. The therapist doesn't yell at you. The therapist asks you and they subtly guide you towards something better. They give you a choice. They give you your free will. They respect your free will. That's what a lot of people don't realize.

Okay. So, you and I just have to disagree about therapists. Okay. All right. Therapists don't actually... well, it doesn't matter. Okay. All right. Okay. But we're trying to explain the logic of Dante, right? And this is a really good explanation and I think it's a very convincing explanation for why Jesus had to die. Okay? It is not about redemption. It's not about justice or vengeance. It's really about inspiration and education. Right? Because once we've seen and once we know that Jesus killed himself for our sins, it gives us a spiritual power and it makes us closer to God.

Okay. All right. So the question is, if it is true that God is perfect, everything God does is perfect. Why does imperfection exist in the world? For example, our bodies, right? Our bodies are imperfect. We feel pain. We die.

Okay. All right. Okay. Why is there imperfection in the world? Why is it that plants wither and die? Why is it that we wither and die? Why? If God is perfect and everything God creates is perfect, then why is there imperfection in the world? Yes.

If everything is perfect, there's no Okay.

What does Dante say? I mean, Dante tells us. Okay.

Because of the original sin.

Excuse me.

Because of the original sin in the Garden of Eden when the humans sinned. But that doesn't explain the plants and the animals and decay. Yes.

So God is perfect and he makes us imperfect. So therefore we can be better. Therefore God can be more Okay.

All right. So what this is saying, okay, is that the God's perfection, right? Does God have the time to create the stone or the... Does he? Does God care? This table, was this created by God? This table, what created this? Yes. And how did we create this table? From trees. And what created trees?

God created the small trees and they become a big tree, right?

So God created seeds. Right. So you guys understand God created the laws of the universe. You understand the laws of the universe is what gives rise to plants, where seeds, like, become trees, right? That's following the law of the universe, but it was God who created these laws of the universe and then God lets these laws of the universe do what they do. Okay, do you understand? So it's God who created the laws of physics, who are governed by the laws of physics. Okay, how are we different from the other creations in the world?

Yes. We have consciousness and we have free will. So, we can, like, direct our own fate and we can, like, subvert some laws that, like, animals are bound to, for example, like, instincts. We can suppress instincts.

Okay, yes, but I'm asking you how this happened, right? Because God creates the laws of the universe, which then gives rise to everything including us. We're different, but we're different from everything else, right? So how was this possible?

Because we're made in the image of God but all the other creatures aren't. And so we have his traits, I guess, or we are most like him. So we have free will.

Yeah. But how did your body come into being? Does your body follow the laws of biology? Yes, it does. Right. So what happened? Why are we different from animals or trees?

Oh yeah, maybe. Okay. Yeah, according to the Bible, I remember in Genesis it said that the God just did not allow the human to eat fruits, right, but the human just chose to eat the wisdom fruit, so it means that he betrayed God, right?

Okay guys, we are trying to read Dante. Okay, let's read line 139 to the end again. Okay, he tells you the answer. Just read it. We'll read it first. "The rays and motion of the holy lights draw forth the soul of every animal and plant from matter able to take form. But your life is breathed forth immediately by the chief good, who so enamors it of his own self that it desires him always. So reasoning, you also can deduce your resurrection.

Okay. Why are we different from animals and trees? Have a soul.

You have a soul. How do we know we have a soul?

Yeah. It says here, guys, you have to read Dante. Okay. "Your life is breathed forth immediately by the chief good." Okay, do you understand? And how do we know this? Because it says so in the Bible, right? How did God create Adam? You guys know how did God create Adam? What is Adam crafted by?

Dust and soil.

Yes, and then what happens? He breathes into him and brings him to God breathed into him and that's what gives Adam life.

Okay? So in other words, God put a part of himself in us. We call this a soul. And because God put a part of himself in us, what is our greatest aspiration?

To desire him.

To return to God. You understand? It's like I give you my finger. Okay? And like my finger is like, I would rather be part of a whole. Okay? So your finger is always desiring to return to him. Do you understand? Okay. So that's what this is saying. This is saying that God breathed himself into us. There's an aspect of God in us and this aspect is always looking to return to God. At the same time, God is always calling for us to return to him. Okay? And this is a fundamental logic of the universe.

Then why do we need to live in the first place? Like why do we need Why did God create Adam?

What does the Bible say? Why did God create Adam?

God wanted relationship.

He was lonely, man.

He wanted to know himself. He was, right? Yes.

So I have a question. So according to this theoretical framework, you have humans and you have other life, as in plants and animals. So technically plants and animals are closer to God than we are because they live in perfect, almost blind obedience to God's natural laws. That is the laws of physics and the laws of biology, while we humans consistently defy these laws.

No, that's the complete opposite of what I just said. Yes.

None of them have souls.

Okay. So God creates a universe. The universe is governed by these laws that he creates. Okay, the laws of physics. This gives rise to everything including evolution, which creates us, right? What makes us unique is God touched us. God put a part of himself into us. And this part of ourselves that we don't really know, the soul, what it always desires is return to the whole. We're a part, we want to return to the whole. Okay. Everything we do is because we desire to return to the whole.

Go ahead.

So basically he was saying that "both of the first parents" refers to Adam and Eve, obviously, and basically he is restating that thing in Christianity where the soul is immortal. So if you can remember a time before your corrupt flesh, then you're immortal now.

Yes. Exactly. Okay. Sorry, did you want to say something? Okay. So what this is saying is, like, remember that you think you're a body. You think you're a human. But what you are really is an aspect of God. That's what your soul is, an aspect of God. And that makes you eternal. Okay? So in other words, you can't possibly die. You can only be reborn. Okay. So if this is the case, what's the purpose of life?

Somehow I believe life is just about being happy, making yourself as happy as possible without harming other people. But I'm pretty sure that this is the perspective that Dante explicitly disagrees with.

What would Dante say?

Well, he rejects the materialism of the Catholic Church, obviously. And basically he's the pilgrim, Dante is alive here. He is flesh and blood here and yet he is climbing up to heaven. Yeah. Exactly. He's up into heaven. So basically what I think he's trying to say is that we have to pursue not material pleasures but a spiritual good.

Okay. So anyone else? What's the point of our existence? Oh yeah, maybe because the god just tries to come back. So he just hopes that people can bring him back because we're the part of them. We're just like maybe a single or what? He just waits for us to bring him back, just like we make machine man, right? Or robot will sometime bring us.

So you see, like, God wants to come Yeah, he will come back because he left, right?

He will come back. So just like he said, I will come back if you trust me and I will come back. I don't understand why God wants to come here.

Okay. Anyone else?

I think in the last few lines he kind of says that we want to desire him. So to know him and become like him, I guess. And just like even in paradise, you want to get closer to him even in paradise.

Yeah. But I'm saying how do you do that, I guess, to know him and be more like him or desire.

I know, but I'm saying how I think Dante would say the point of life is to love and to imagine, use imagination.

Okay. So these things are the same thing. The goal is to love. Why would that be the most important thing you can do in life? Yeah, because God is love. I understand that God is love.

No, you wouldn't be able to return to the source if you kill yourself. That will lead you... Then how do we return to the source?

To love, to amplify whatever that is within us which was breathed into us in order to get closer to the source. Anyone else? We should act in accordance with natural What is natural law?

The morality that's set up by God.

Okay. Right. Okay. Try to be specific. Okay. Yes. Did you have a... Okay. All... Anyone else? Yes.

Maybe we should try to experience

We should experience more

Because God can't experience as a Okay.

All right. Okay. So, let's do a film about this. Okay. Everything God does is perfect. Everything God does is for a perfect reason. He created this world which is governed by perfect laws but it's imperfect in that, well, there's evil, there's pain, there's hunger, there's agony, there's... What's the point of all this? Why would he create a world like this? Yes. Well, if I didn't know about the whole baptism thing, I would say that we are here and we have to live a full life and we have to live a good life because we have original sin and we have to redeem our souls which are after all afflicted with original sin from the Adam and Eve business, from original sin.

Okay. All right. So an idea that you guys need to remember is, like, we don't have to redeem ourselves because Jesus already did it for us. Do you understand? Okay. This is a major assumption of the Divine Comedy. So now the question then is, if we're redeemed, everything that is done is for a purpose. Everything is in the mind of God. Everything he does is for a perfect reason. What is the purpose of this world that we live in?

Yes. Yes. Go ahead.

Maybe because love is made perfect in pain and agony, maybe like that way. So

Can you explain Like, you cannot show or exercise or prove love without paying a price for it.

So then the other side of the coin is that you have to pay a price or you have to deal with some sort of ugly evil things to see what's beautiful, maybe to Yeah.

But I mean, like, why would God do this? What's the point of this? Okay. All right. Let me ask you this. What is it that we have God doesn't have?

Okay. Is that impressive?

Mortality. Death. Yes.

Imperfection. Yes.

We can be evil. Yes. Okay. Okay. Let's now step back and think about what's happening. Okay. Beatrice and Dante are together, right? What is the relationship? What is the relationship?

Teacher, student.

Exactly. It's teacher-student, right? Because Dante is asking questions and Beatrice is providing answers. Are Beatrice's answers perfect? Are they perfect? Are they the absolute truth? Yes, they... Yeah, I understand. You can argue with her, but I'm saying, like, in I'm saying that in Paradiso itself, Beatrice admitted that her words are but an imperfect reflection of the truth.

Like she is trying to communicate the truth but she is doing it to Dante and Dante is not able to take the truth in his present Okay.

All right. Okay. Let's take it step by step. Okay. First, we've established that the relationship between Beatrice and Dante is teacher-student. Okay, that's point one. Point two is, even though you could be right and, like, how Beatrice expresses herself where Dante is imperfect, her understanding of the universe is perfect. Correct. Yes. Because she represents God. Everything she says is perfect. We may not understand what she says. Dante may misinterpret what she says, but everything she says is perfect. Okay, that's number two. Number three then is, what then is the point of teaching Dante

So that he can be the mouthpiece and tell people

Like a prophet

So historically

Can I answer Well, Dante, the Divine Comedy is you go through hell first to get to heaven, so earth is hell and you can learn from all the materialistic things, you can learn if they're good or not, and then return to God yourself.

But you have to go through the Inferno first.

Okay. All right. So in the Bible there is a book called Ezekiel. Okay. Ezekiel, actually draw it up. Okay. Okay. Right. So we'll ask Google. Okay. How does Ezekiel receive the word of God? All right. So Ezekiel, it's a book of the Bible and he goes up to heaven to receive the word of God just like Dante is receiving the word of God. How does Ezekiel receive the word of God? Do you think... Okay. So AI is stupid. Okay. No, no, no. If you read the Bible, okay, how does Ezekiel literally receive the word of God?

Could speak to God. He had a relationship with God.

No, no, no. What God did was take the scrolls, right? The scrolls carry his message and then what did God do? He stuffed it into the mouth of Ezekiel and Ezekiel literally ate it. Do you understand? If you want to make sure the prophet delivers the right message, you stuff it down his throat. Do you understand? So why is Beatrice wasting all this time dealing with Dante? Yes. Did Ezekiel agree to have this stuff down his throat?

So, like, Dante is going through this experience and not just having all of the information stuffed down his throat because the journey is what matters more than the information.

Don't you think accuracy matters more? Like if God wants to deliver a message to his people, don't you think, like, accuracy matters?

Right? I think it's not about, like, is it, maybe it's the idea that it's not the end result or the accuracy. There's not a right answer, but it's the individual transformation and the individual journey that matters more.

Why though? I'm trying to figure this out. Okay, I'm trying to figure out. Okay, like in Ezekiel, you can just stuff the message down a person's throat so that he never forgets it. Okay, and he must quote it word for word.

He forgets a bunch of things.

He forgets everything.

Not everything.

Basically everything. Okay. This is really weird, to forget to deliver a message to people. Like, let's pick a guy who I have to teach and then he'll probably forget most everything I teach and he's going to go back and he's going to have to remember everything. Okay, this is a really silly way of doing things, but God is perfect. Everything God does is for a reason. So, what's the reason? So, can it be that God wants us to utilize our one gift that he's given us, free will, to freely choose to be nearer to him, and we each have to take that trip or that process individually?

Yeah, that is correct. Okay. So, how can Dante deliver this message or how can Dante help us go on this journey ourselves? By writing this book.

Exactly. There you go. This is why this had to happen. Okay. What is it that we have that God doesn't have? How is Dante able to write this?

We have a concept of space and time.

So like How did Dante write this?

Oh. Oh, I know. We don't know things. God is all-knowing. God knows everything. So, we can How did he write the Divine Comedy?

He's channeling God.

He channeled God, but it was through him, right? So, what did he do?

I think that he utilized the things that he was trying to preach against, as in logic and rationalism. What did he use to create this thing?

Pencil and paper.

Do you guys not have it?

The imagination. Do you understand? What is it that we have that God cannot have? The imagination. Why can't God have imagination? He's perfect. You understand? If you're perfect, you know everything. You cannot fail. Therefore, you cannot have an imagination.

Yeah, that's a good question. Why? What is it that we have that God doesn't Oh, yeah.

Maybe because God is invincible, because God can live forever. But life is limited. So people have imagination because if you're limited, you just always want to know more Yeah.

Exactly. Yes. Go on. Imagination isn't a skill, something you have. It's something that you lack. So if you already know everything, there's nothing to imagine. But we can imagine because we have gaps in our thinking.

Yeah, because our lives are limited. We want to transcend to higher realms or higher consciousness. That's why we Okay.

Yeah. But the major point is that what Dante is saying is that we humans are not lesser beings. We are co-equal with God because even though God has perfection, we have... And so if you're God and you're trying to extend the boundaries of the universe, right? You're trying to create more things in the universe, you can't do so yourself because you're perfection. Okay? So you must use... So everything that happens is for a divine purpose. You understand? And as you say, the reason why we have the imagination is because we have bodies and our bodies can suffer, bodies can feel pain, bodies can die.

So, we're going quantity over quality here, right? Because God could create anything he wants, but he is absolutely perfect. So, he is tired of having to create everything. And so, he wants people to create more things that he couldn't think of. But these things are going to be imperfect because these people who create are going to be imperfect too. Is that right?

Eternity is death. You understand that? Eternity is death. So your only solution to life is... Does that make sense? God is eternal. We are infinite. Love is eternal. The imagination is... Okay? God is not capable of the... Therefore, God had to create us.

Yeah. Well, actually I think God maybe just wants us forever because in the Bible the people don't need to wear clothes, they're naked and they got surrounded by the light. They're in the light ball. So it means they will live forever. But just because the people, you know, try maybe out of curiosity, so was been ruled by the snake. So it's just sitting, right. So just eat a fruit, and there's another tree, instead of the tree with the fruit with the wisdom there's another tree that is the longevity, but the people just chose to pick the fruit from the wisdom.

Okay. Okay. All right.

Yeah. Okay. Yes.

Well, I have an unrelated question. So why hasn't anybody else traveled to paradise and written a book just like... Why, there's billions of people, why only Dante has gone to paradise and written a book?

What's the answer? Well, I don't know if I can answer a question but, you know, just like, maybe I was in my dream, I can see something in my dream that I was in hell and in hell people just feel suffering, but there's another place that I also saw in my dream is that people think everything is for free, everything is for free, so that's really chaotic. Yeah, maybe there's so many universes, some of the universe... Because, you know, people just like beasts, some of the universe.

Why was there a Jesus?

Why couldn't there be a second Jesus? There was only one Jesus. Why was there just one Jesus? Someone else can't come and be another Jesus. Why not?

Because Jesus is a facet of God. And if another Jesus comes in and also says, "Oh, we're going to redeem you of all your sins," then that's basically saying the first Jesus didn't do his job. So the first Jesus would be imperfect. And that wouldn't be very nice, would it? Okay. Okay. So, I think Dante was a messenger from God. Okay. So, you asked a question earlier today: how was Dante able to do what he did? Okay. So, here's some facts about Dante. The man died without a country.

Okay. I don't disagree with what you say. Okay. But I want to emphasize certain points about this class. Okay. First of all, this is not an academic seminar. This is about intellectual speculation. It's about going on a journey like Dante went on his journey to figure out the structure, the secrets of the universe itself. That's point one. Point two is, on this journey it has to be a leap of faith. Okay? You have to believe that this is divine. You have to believe this is perfection. You have to believe that when you enter the Divine Comedy, you are entering into the soul of the universe itself.

Okay. Okay. That's it for today. We'll continue tomorrow. Okay.