Dante #3: Paradise Cantos 11, 12, 17, 24

So, like in canto 6 there is like this narrative of Rome's history and something that really confused me is actually a historical reference. So, okay, so it said starting when... Could you give us a line, please?

Where do you see the line? On the Her version doesn't have the...

Let's try to use one version. Okay. As you can see, this is the Mandelbaum version of the Columbia website. Okay, let's just use that, guys, so that we are aligned.

The problem is I put Mandelbaum on both sides while only the Italian version is numbered. Only the Italian version is... Yeah, they're on the same line.

Yeah. Yeah, I know. So, like, I was talking about line 36, "when Pallas died that it might gain a kingdom." So according to my understanding, the story of Pallas and Athena is a very Greek story and it doesn't have much relevance to the Roman Empire. It's a very personal Athena story. So, what does this have to do with the Yeah, that's a great question.

Does anyone know the answer? It's actually a very hard question. So, I want to thank you for pointing this out. So, Pallas and Athena were twins, right? And Athena had to kill Pallas in order to... The story of the founding of Rome is that Romulus and Remus were twins and they grew up together and they rose up together and they loved each other and then after they defeated, like, an evil uncle, they were assigned a plot of land which became modern-day Rome. The two go to Rome and they decide we can't rule Rome as twins.

A follow-up question, because according to my understanding and according to Wikipedia, which is not a credible source but is valuable for basic understanding, Pallas and Athena were not in direct opposition, like they were not fighting over a territory. Athena lost Pallas and accidentally killed her. So, while the theme of killing a twin is the same, I don't see how this has to do with a territorial Okay.

So, again, the idea is that you must kill someone you love in order to fully become yourself. Okay. So that's what poetry is. Poetry presents two ideas that may not be interrelated and it forces you to use your imagination in order to relate the two things. You're absolutely right. Like Pallas and Athena, Romulus and Remus, I didn't see the connection. And what Dante is doing, by putting them together with the grammar, it forces you to see the connection. Okay. What is a simile? A simile is an unseen connection, right?

Okay. All right.

Yes. Thank you, Carol. Yes. Thank you so much for the questions. I want to preface today, it's our third day, and say that I've been really grateful for the open and candid dialogues and questionings we've had because this may not be happening elsewhere in the world. That's one. So, kudos to all of you. Second, I was very happy to hear from one of you this morning who said I love the music, because I played some music before class started this morning and it was actually Jack Johnson, whom someone else said was from his college days.

Well, thank you, Carol. Absolutely. And as you can see, what's happening is that across time, across space, different artists, whether they're poets, they're musicians, they're trying to convey the same message. So, you have to think it might be from the same source, right? And that's what Dante is trying to explain in the Divine Comedy. There is a common source and from this common source, we can generate our creativity. Okay. Any other questions from last class before I begin? Yes. Thank you.

So, like a reflection of Dante that's like higher and more divine. Okay, it's actually much more complicated than that, which is that if you study this occult esoterism, this mysticism, what they believe is that we are a reflection of God. And God is always a dual nature, both a masculine and a feminine. Okay? So, within us, there's always a masculine and a feminine. So, what Dante has done is basically split himself into two. He's Dante the masculine and Beatrice the feminine. Okay. So again I don't know, but what I think, if I'm a painter, I'm an artist and I recognize this, what I'm trying to do is show that Beatrice is just an alter ego of Dante.

And again, I'm just speculating. Okay, I'm just using my imagination as to what has happened because I'm not the artist, okay? I don't know what's going on, but this is really important for you guys to appreciate: that the process of creativity, the process of imagination requires you to recognize your dual self, split yourself off and have a dialogue within yourself that becomes the basis for the creation of whatever art you create, whether it's a painting or a poem or even a building. Okay? And this is usually how the creative process works.

Oh, we just We don't know.

But a person could just say, if this happens then I swear to God something something, and that's a vow.

I was wondering what other vows a person would make.

A common person, just an everyday, and so I could think of, like, marriage vows is a simple one. Baptismal vows might be made for you on your be... because Anabaptists don't exist. And so what other vows might occur in everyday society that you're breaking? Because you don't have to just walk around going, I swear to God if I get an A, I'm going to do XYZ.

Okay. Yeah, that's a really interesting question. So, what I will say is that what Dante will say is to be fully human, you must get into the habit of making vows to yourself. Okay? Because that ultimately is what motivates you, what drives you to a higher, right? Making a vow means being able to have hope in the future and loving yourself, having faith in the universe. Okay, so these are three ideas that we'll talk a lot about for the next two days. Hope, love, and faith. So making a vow is an expression of hope, love, and faith.

I find that a very reductionist view, to be honest. Like a lot of people say bad things about the Middle Ages. I agree, Middle Ages, bad place to be compared to now, compared to the Renaissance. But we have to admit that the Middle Ages were the foundation for what became the Renaissance. And the Renaissance did not change things much for the average person. It changed things a lot for the intellectuals and for the high-class people. I think that's important to keep in mind.

Okay. So I'm trying to make a point here. Okay. The point is that in the year 1300, if you were Mayan and you visited Europe, if you were living in Baghdad, you visited Europe. If you were living in China, you visit Europe, you would think this place is a hole. Okay? You would think this place is hopeless. These people are barbarians. All they do is kill each other. There is censorship. There is no learning. It's all anti-learning, anti-intellectual. But at the same time, 20 years in the future, there's a Renaissance, which then leads to the second revolution, the Enlightenment, the age of conquest, where Europe will span out and conquer everyone.

So my first question has to do with the very Eurocentric nature of this so-called cosmic war. So Virgil and Dante are both Europeans. And I think it might be more appropriate to say that this is a war fought on the European thoughtscape rather than across the entire cosmos. And the second part is I'm a little bit confused when you're talking about obedience. So you said that Dante speaks against obedience, but he speaks for the obedience of vows and obedience to God. So how is that Okay.

So let me answer your second question first. Okay. Okay. So it's really a difference between how you perceive your role in the world. Are you an active participant in the world or are you a passive participant in the world? According to Virgil, according to the Catholic Church, I should also point out that this idea of obedience comes from two major theologians of the Catholic Church. There of course are Paul and Augustine. Okay. Paul, who is the founder of the Catholic Church, and Augustine, who is the major theologian of the Catholic Church who will systemize the teachings of Paul.

Can I add to this? I actually was rereading and researching last night City of God by Augustine and he would say that because of the fall, let me pull up my notes, because of the fall.

That's right.

And the damage itself was inherited by all the descendants of Adam.

Through the mechanism of semen. Right. And this concept that every human has sexual desire almost as a punishment. And even the people, even the saints and the most holy people of all time who denied themselves, they would be, what do you call, celibate, they're denying themselves sexual desire, Augustine calls this fake. He is not impressed with this at all and he would say, like, it's a person who's like fasting, they're still hungry, right? And it's that hunger, that desire, that you cannot fake it. It's still there. Right.

Exactly. So you can appreciate this is what's being taught at this time, right? We are just completely hopeless. We are beyond salvation. We are just beyond redemption. Just don't cause any trouble, guys. Just obey and then when you die, maybe God will save you. Okay? So, it's a very pessimistic, very fatalistic viewpoint. But when you read the Divine Comedy, it's very hopeful. Okay. It just emits love. Okay. So, thank you so much for that. Okay. All right. Great.

Okay. So, I don't know enough about Indian poetry to comment. Okay. But the point I'm trying to make is this. In this classroom, we are making certain assumptions. We are assuming the universality of Dante. Meaning Dante can speak to everyone, of all cultures, of all ages, across all of time. Okay. And you need that sort of arrogance or sense of supremacy in order to fully appreciate Dante. Okay. So I understand, yes, there must be other great works of literature out there. Show it to me, okay? Rather than tell me you're just being ignorant, you're just being racist.

Okay? This is not an academic classroom. Okay? This is not designed to be in the classroom. I already said our two missions, right? Share Dante with the... Right? Why do I share Dante with the world? Because I think that in this time and age, when there is war, when there is hopelessness, when there is conflict, I believe that resummoning Dante to this world, spreading Dante to this world will give humanity... That's what I fundamentally believe. That's what I think our mission is. Okay? Not just to share Dante with the world, but to resummon Dante physically into our world with our imagination so that Dante can help save the world from whatever we're doing.

This is not a course.

Academic program. There's, for example, an open course by a Sterling professor on Dante in translation. You can look for many of these.

Okay. Do you understand? And that's why I have to emphasize. Okay. There's a mission here. Let's stick to the mission. If you do not agree with the mission, then this course is probably not for you. Okay? So, it's not a course, but this setup, okay, or this platform, okay, is not for you. Okay. We are here to truly learn to love Dante so that we may share it with others. Okay, any more questions before we... Okay, so what we're going to do now is we're going to jump ahead.

"Paradise canto 11. Oh senseless cares of mortals, how deceiving are syllogistic reasonings that bring your wings to flight so low to earthly things. One studied law and one the aphorisms of the physicians. One was set on priesthood and one through force or fraud on rulership. One meant to plunder, one to politick, one labored tangled in delights of flesh, and one was fully bent on Okay.

So here Dante is criticizing academic studies, right? Okay. What is his concern about academic studies at this time? What does he mean?

Anyone? Yes.

They all have ulterior motives.

Good. Yes. That they focus too much on the material and not the spiritual.

Yeah, exactly. Okay. So, the idea is syllogistic reasonings. Okay. Rather than use your mind to pursue God and the truth. Yes. Did you have a No.

No. I was trying to answer your question too. So, I'm reminded of something in Crusader Kings, the game. You can have your priest justify your claim to a plot of enemy land through theology. So what he's saying here, how I understand it, is that he's saying that theology is not studied for its own sake but to amass Exactly.

Okay. That's what everyone agrees on. Right. This is a problem with theology, with academics at this point in history. Quite honestly, it's no different today, by the way. But he points out this is a real problem. Okay. Keep on going.

"Verse 10. While I, delivered from our servitude to all these things, was in the height of heaven with Beatrice so gloriously welcomed. After each of those spirits had returned to that place in the ring where it had been, it halted like a candle in its stand. And from within the splendor that had spoken to me before, I heard him, as he smiled, become more radiant, more pure, begin.

So he, of course, is Thomas Aquinas. All right, who will explain the Franciscan order. Okay, so this is weird because Thomas Aquinas is of the Dominican order, but he'll explain the glories of the Franciscan order. Now what he will do is he will criticize his own order and then in the next canto we'll meet another guy, Bonaventure, who is of the Franciscan order, praise the Dominican order and then criticize his own order. Okay. All right. Keep on going.

"Verse 19. Even as I grow bright within its rays, so as I gaze at the eternal light I can perceive your thoughts and see their cause. You're in doubt. You want an explanation in language that is open and expanded, so clear that it contends your understanding of two points: where I said 'they fatten well' and where I said 'no other ever rose,' and here one has to make a clear Okay.

So we skipped ahead but Thomas Aquinas already is having conversation with Dante and "they fatten well" obviously refers to corruption in the Catholic church. Okay, so he's trying to explain how this happened. Okay, keep on going. Okay, line 28. "The providence that rules the world with wisdom so fathomless that creatures' intellects are vanquished and can never probe its depth, so that the bride of him who with loud cries had wed her with his blessed blood might meet her love with more fidelity and more assurance in herself, on her behalf commanded that there be two princes, one on this side, one on that side, as her guide."

Okay. So these are the two most important tercets of this canto. Okay. So let's try to unpack this. Does anyone know what the bride of Jesus is? The bride of God. What is the bride of God?

Well, if I was a heretic I would say Mary Magdalene.

No. It's the Catholic church, right? The bride of God.

Yeah. God is a heretic.

All right. The bride of God is the Catholic church. Okay. So, how was the Catholic Church founded? It was founded through the sacrifice of Jesus, right? So, after Jesus was crucified, the Catholic Church came into being in order to continue Jesus's mission on earth. Right? So, the Catholic Church made a vow to God that we will be forever married and I will promote your message in the world. Okay? And in order to achieve this, what will happen is they will give rise to two princes to ensure that the mission continues despite the corruption and the decay of the Catholic church, and these two princes are St.

So the seraph and the cherub are two orders of angels. Okay. So the angels have taken possession of these two individuals, Francis and Dominic. And it's the angels who will guide them in their mission.

"Verse 40. I shall devote my tale to one, because in praising either prince, one praises both. The labors of the two were toward one goal."

Okay, so he's going to talk about Francis. Okay, keep on going.

"Verse 43. Between Topino's stream and that which flows down from the hill the blessed Ubaldo chose, from a high peak there hangs a fertile slope. From there Perugia feels both heat and cold at Porta Sole, while behind it, sorrowing, Nocera and Gualdo under their hard yoke. From this hillside, where it abates its rise, a son was born into the world, much like this sun when it is climbing from the Ganges. Therefore, let him who names this site not say Assisi, which would be to say too little, but 'Orient' if he would name it rightly.

Okay. All right. So, let's try to figure out what's going on. Okay. Francis married someone. Okay. He married this person in defiance of his family, of his father. Okay. Does anyone know the story of Francis of Assisi? Okay. Can you explain who he is and what he did? So basically he's a saint obviously and the founder of the Franciscan order and his whole thing is that he's really poor. Really, really, really, really poor. Poorer than Augustinians, poorer than Okay.

And Sorry, how did he become poor?

He gave away all his riches.

Okay. So he's born rich. Okay. He was born into a wealthy family and he said to his parents, I don't want this. Okay. I want poverty. So he rejected his family. He rejected his legacy. He rejected his community in order to wed poverty. Okay. So the bride, she is referring to poverty, right? And who married poverty before? Poverty has two husbands. Francis is the second. Who would be the first?

"Verse 67. Nor did it help her when men heard that he who made earth tremble found her unafraid, serene with Amyclas when he addressed her. Nor did her constancy and courage help when she, even when Mary stayed below, suffered with Christ upon the cross. But so that I not tell my tale too darkly, you may now take Francis and take poverty to be the lovers meant in my recounting. Their harmony and their glad looks, their love and wonder, and their gentle contemplation served others as a source of holy thoughts, so much so that the venerable Bernard went barefoot first.

Okay. So he is referring to a happy marriage, right? Francis gives up everything to marry poverty and they are the happiest couple in the world. And there are followers who also embrace poverty and they become a family. Okay? And this becomes the Franciscan order. The early Franciscans... Why would you be happy marrying poverty? This goes into everything that we've been taught, right? If you want to be happy, you must get rich. Why would you be happy marrying poverty?

Yeah. Okay. So what you're saying is that money sort of blinds you, right? You focus on money. You focus on the material world and that blinds you from a greater truth. Okay. Good. Anyone else?

Oh yeah. Maybe because he wants to go to paradise, go to heaven, because if you just do not be rich, then maybe you'll be in heaven just like the gods, right. So maybe.

Right. So Jesus said that if you are poor, you have riches in heaven. Yes. Okay. Blessed are the meek. Yes.

So he had riches first, right? And he was giving them all away. Maybe he was trying to do good deeds by giving alms.

Could you elaborate on this? So, like, he has all this money and to get rid of it to become poor he doesn't chuck it in the river. He gives it away to, like, beggars, to vagrants, and even when he founded his order, the Franciscan order, there he took in people who have no other home and for the people who have property he took their donations and he used it to do good works in the local area. So it's a way of spreading out. Are

You just assuming that or do you know I read the story.

Yeah.

Okay. So, he gave away his wealth.

Okay. All right. But I'm saying, like, why would he do that?

Yes.

So in line 76 they say, "Their harmony and their glad looks, their love and wonder and their gentle consolation served others as a source of holy thoughts." So probably he's trying to show the world that you can also, like he said, you can go look for your inner spirit and spiritual enlightenment rather than chasing money. As an example he wants to show the world that this can be a way.

Okay. So thank you. First of all I love the fact that you refer to the text. Okay, this is really important, guys. We're here to learn Dante, always refer to the text. And second of all, you're absolutely right in that being an inspiration to others brings you tremendous delight. Right? So back to the second, learn Dante so that you may teach it to others as an act of love. Right? So the reason why you do that is it makes you a happier person. Okay? And not only does it give you more enlightenment, it brings greater happiness to you.

Well, because we would be ostracized by society. I mean, there's, for example, there's also the philosopher Diogenes who lived in poverty like The Cynic.

Yes. The Cynic. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. He lived in Athens in a barrel or something for his whole A bathtub.

Or a bathtub. Yeah. And yeah, he was also really poor and everyone, like, looked down on him and, like, he was ostracized and yeah, But why did he do it then?

If he was ostracized, he was humiliated. Everyone laughed at him. Why did he do it?

Well, he didn't care. Like he felt happy, so that's what mattered.

But what's the source of his happiness?

No, it's like the Buddhists said, if you don't want, then if you don't desire

You're never going to have suffering because suffering is the point of Yeah.

He just didn't want it. Yes.

So I would turn inwards, to be honest. I would turn inwards. I would say this is a way for them to get closer to God because as we mentioned before, like in Dante's own flight to paradise, he was told to shed his physical conceptions, to shed his physical logic, to shed his worldly vanities, and only when we are pure in spirit can we reach the heavens. Now suicide is not a thing in Catholicism. So the closest we can get to a state of being pure in spirit is by getting rid of all our property and having only this body left.

Okay. Right. Yes, I understand that. But I'm saying, like, why is it hard to just do that? Why do you not want to give up your p Property and your wealth?

Anyone? Anyone else? Let's have more participation. Okay. Yes.

We don't know actually what it will be like if we haven't experienced it before. So what if we give everything away in Exactly.

Yeah. Thank you. Okay. So we have one which is we will become ostracized. Okay. Humiliation. It's public humiliation. Okay. Everyone's going to laugh at us. Unless you're like Diogenes and you just don't care. Okay. But that's pretty weird. Second is... sorry, so sorry, could you

It's that if we haven't experienced it before we don't know what it will be like, so what if I give everything away and then I'm actually miserable So these are the two things, right?

Ego and fear. Ego is you want to stand above the people around you. Fear is you don't truly know yourself, you're afraid. Okay, so these are the two major reasons, the ego and the fear.

Yes, I Mean, sometimes you also have, like, responsibility about raising a family or caring about, like, your family.

So that could be a reason, like, besides your ego, you need to care for others also.

Yeah. Exactly. Right. If you have a family, you can't take a vow of poverty. You have to feed them as well. So poverty means complete social isolation, right? It means you can't get married. It means you can't have kids. So it is an act of tremendous sacrifice. Good. Thank you. Anyone else? Yes.

So I think that, you know, when you have, like, materialistic goals, it kind of motivates you sometimes. So for example, if there's, like, a test and my mom promises me, like, a new iPhone 17 Pro, like, I would definitely work harder for that. So, I just think that for a lot of people, it's very hard to let go of their materialistic desires because then they would feel like my life is so devoid of meaning. And I think that they're scared of that.

Yeah. So, what you're saying is short-term gratification versus long-term reward, right? Maybe if you embrace a life of poverty, you go to heaven and that's great, but in the short term, you're better off just being rich, right? So, good. Yes. Anyone else? Yes.

No, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. You... Yes. I think, you know, in ancient times, in the time of Dante, wealth means physical chattels or real estate and all these carry tremendous responsibilities for the person who possesses them, and this leads to a burdensome life. And secondly, just going back to the text, I think when the Franciscan and the Dominican praise the other and criticize themselves, there might be a new interpretation which I think might be interesting, which, you know, what if these two criticize themselves because they do not have equal wealth and equal knowledge.

Okay. So that's a very interesting comment. But have we had an instance of a truly wise man who also had tremendous wealth? Maybe Solomon. Okay. So, I mean, there are examples but historically we've had more cases where you can either choose wealth or wisdom, right? And the classic example of course is Socrates, a man who was basically poor all his life. In fact, his wife made all the money in the family. Okay, he had a family. He had kids, but the wife had to raise the kids because he didn't take money for his teachings.

Okay, this is certainly true for all worlds where all that matters is money. Money moves around the world but this is not true actually in medieval Europe. Okay, medieval Europe. Yes, there's hypocrisy where the Catholic Church is filthy rich. They own a third of all the land in Europe. That is true. But what is taught, what people believe, is that money is the root of all evil. So the money doesn't matter. What matters is salvation. What matters is going to heaven. Okay. Okay. Yes.

Is it kind of gaslighting that the Catholic church is saying that they own most of the land but they say money is the root of evil but meanwhile they have all the money and can do whatever they want.

Okay. And so what would you prefer? They own all the property and they tell everyone, "You're nothing. I'm everything. You guys are poor. You guys are going to hell." Would you prefer No.

I would rather be deceived.

I'm interested in the charitable concept of all of this. Like, I know this is not the modern age. Like, in the modern age you have to pay a lot of taxes and the taxes go towards public works and you can donate to charity and you have all these things going on. But in the Middle Ages wealth was pretty stagnant, right? However there are some few charitable endeavors by believers, like there's this custom of almsgiving by rich ladies and there's also the Catholic church and the monasteries and they provide sanctuary to criminals and they provide schooling, so, like, is that a type of charitable outreach that would not be possible had they not been so organized and so rich.

Yeah. So charity is one of the chief Christian virtues, right? So we say faith, love, and hope, but back then it was faith, hope, and charity. So if you're a rich person, you were obligated to share your wealth with the people around you. Okay? And guys, it's hard to imagine this, but back then, no one really cared how rich you were. It was not a big thing, okay? It was a source of a lot of corruption but for most people they didn't really care. In elite politics it did matter but for most people it did not matter.

"Verse 88. Nor did he lower his eyes in shame because he was the son of Pietro Bernardone, nor for the scorn and wonder he aroused, but like a sovereign he disclosed in full to Innocent the sternness of his rule. From him he had the first seal of his order. And after many of the poor had followed Francis, whose wondrous life was better sung by glory's choir in the Empyrean, the sacred purpose of this chief of shepherds was then encircled with the second crown by the eternal spirit through Honorius. And after, in his thirst for martyrdom, within the presence of the haughty sultan he preached of Christ and those who followed him."

Okay. So, okay. So, you guys understand what's happening, right? Francis will die. He'll go to heaven to receive his just reward. He tells his brothers, his entire followers, to be loyal to his wife. Right? My wife is poverty. Now that I'm gone, my only request, my last will and testament, is for you to be loyal, to take care of my wife who's given me everything in this world and who's helped me to ascend to heaven. So, of course, what do they... What do they do? Obviously, yes, They're not disloyal.

They abandon And by how, if you are this brotherhood, the Franciscan order, what's the easiest way for you to abandon poverty?

Someone who is rich.

No, because they're all celibate, right? This is the Franciscan order. So, they're supposed to marry poverty and so what do they do? And it's a loophole, right? They're not going to, like, you know what, screw this, we're going to marry rich people. Okay. But there's a loophole. What is the loophole?

Oh, the loophole is actually really famous. So, it used to be that during the time when Francis was alive, when people gave the Franciscan order a house in town to live in, Francis just climbed up the roof and started tearing off the shingles. And the town was like, stop. And Francis was like, no, you're giving us a house. We can't have that. Even if we share it, we can't have that. And so the town told Francis, okay, I guess we're lending you the house. And Francis begrudgingly agreed.

Okay. Well, they basically own property. Okay. So let me ask you this question. Why were people giving them property? So did they say something like, give us property and then you can perhaps ascend to heaven, or like The friars would never, ever say this.

Okay, they would never say if you make me rich, I'll make you go to heaven. Okay, that's not what happened.

Like, donate to our just cause.

No, they would never say that. So what would happen? Yes. You go first and then you. Okay.

Yeah, you should be poor. So I'll take your property from you.

No, they would never ever do that. Okay. They would never do that. What happened?

They were actually inspirational. They were really inspirational. Like, rich people, some people wanted to be Franciscans, but they felt like they couldn't cut off their material ties entirely. So, they gave the Franciscans property.

Exactly. Do you understand? It's a bribe, guys. Okay. If I'm rich, I have a billion dollars and these guys are going to heaven because they're poor. What am I going to do? I'm going to bribe these guys. Say, "Hey, I'll give you half a mill. I'll give you, like, half a billion dollars. I'll give you half my wealth." Okay? I still keep half a billion. You get how good... and we all go to heaven, guys. What a great deal. You understand? That's what happened. They did not intentionally try to become rich, but they were forced to become rich because everyone wanted to go to heaven.

All right. Yes.

I think the relationship between the Franciscans and the Pope is really interesting. On one hand, Francis was a devout Catholic and he would never contradict the Pope. In fact, he was told by Catholic Central to maybe tone the richest bad thing down a little bit because you're making us look bad. And Francis was like, "Okay." Also, even though Francis is widely known as a peacemaker, during the Crusades he did not speak up against the Crusades and he approved the Crusades tacitly because after all he was affiliated with the Okay.

Yeah. So this is a very important point. Okay. So what's happening at this time is that there are a lot of people who are opposed to the Catholic church because the Catholic church is filthy rich and they were like, wait a minute here, Jesus was poor. He said, "Don't be rich," and you guys are filthy rich. Okay? And they were ostentatious about it, like, you know, just go to Rome, man. Okay? Go to the Vatican. It's the wealthiest place in the world. So there's all this criticism and a way for the Catholic Church to deal with this criticism is to sponsor defenses in order, right?

He's referring to Paul, by the way. Okay, Paul. Keep on going.

"Such was our patriarch. Thus you can see that those who follow him as he commands, as cargo carry worthy merchandise. But now his flock is grown so greedy for new nourishment that it must wander far in search of strange and distant grazing lands. And as his sheep, remote and vagabond, stray farther from his side, at their return into the fold, their lack of milk is greater. Though there are some indeed who, fearing harm, stay near the shepherd, they are few in number. To clothe them would require little cloth. Now if my words are not too dim and distant, if you have listened carefully to them, if you can call to mind what has been said, then part of what you wish to know is answered.

All right. So this creates a central dilemma. Okay. These are people, the Franciscans, who have the most noble purpose. Okay. To spread the message of Jesus, to bring hope and salvation to the poorest people, to embrace poverty. These are the best... But there are two central issues. The first is their ego and their fear, right? The fact that to truly embrace poverty the way that Francis did, you have to abandon society. And no one wants to do that, right? It's a social death. And you're afraid of what it means to be poor.

"Canto 12. No sooner had the blessed flame begun to speak its final word than the millstone of holy lights began to turn. But it was not yet done with one full revolution before another ring surrounded it. And motion matched with motion, song with song. A song that's sung by those sweet instruments surpasses so our muses and our sirens as first light does the light that is reflected. Just as, concentric and alike in color, two rainbows will curve their way through a thin cloud when Juno has commanded her handmaid, the outer rainbow echoing the inner, much like the voice of one "the wandering nymph whose love consumed as sun consumes the mist.

Okay. All right. So again, the bride is the Catholic Church and the two champions are Francis and Dominic. Okay. Keep on going.

"Verse 46. In that part of the West where gentle Zephyr rises to open those new leaves in which Europe appears reclothed, not far from where, behind the waves that beat upon the coast, the sun, grown weary from its lengthy course, at times conceals itself from all men's eyes, there Calaroga, blessed by fortune, sits under the aegis of the mighty shield on which the lion loses and prevails. Within its walls were born the loving vassal of Christian faith, the holy athlete, one kind to his own and harsh to enemies. No sooner was his mind created than it was so full of living force that it, still in his mother's womb, made her prophetic.

Okay. All right. So the idea here is that Francis married poverty. Dominic will marry faith. Okay. All right. Keep on going.

"Verse 64. The lady who had given the assent for him saw in a dream astonishing fruit that would spring from him and from his heirs, and that his name might echo what he was, a spirit moved from here to have him called by the possessive of the one by whom he was possessed completely. Dominic became his name. I speak of him as one whom Christ chose as the worker in his garden. He seemed the fitting messenger and servant of Christ. The very first love that he showed was the first injunction Christ had given.

Okay. All right. So, okay. So, let's go into the history of the Dominicans. The Dominicans were founded for a very specific purpose. So at this time in Europe there's a major threat to the Catholic Church and it's called the Cathars. Okay, the Cathars. Okay. And to deal with the Cathars, and they are in southern France in a place called Albi, the Catholic Church launched what we call the Albigensian Crusade. Okay, the idea is that these Cathars are what we call Gnostics. What are Gnostics? Gnostics are people who believe in the ideas that Dante believes.

Okay. The left-hand interest, what he's saying is that the Catholic Church is very corrupt. They are always doing left-hand interests. Okay. The left hand just means whatever is sinister. And I am the most pure. I am the most just official. Okay, keep on.

"Verse 130. Illuminato and Augustine are here. They were among the first unshod poor brothers to wear the cord, becoming friends of God. Hugh of St. Victor too is here with them, Peter of Spain, who with his 12 books glows on earth below, and Peter, book devourer, Nathan the prophet, Anom, and Chrysostom the metropolitan, and that Donatus who deigned to deal with that art which comes first. Rabanus too is here, and at my side shines the Calabrian abbot Joachim, who had the gift of the prophetic spirit. To this my praise of such a paladin, the glowing courtesy and the discerning language of Thomas urged me on and stirred with me the souls that form this Okay.

All right. So, okay. So again to summarize, we learned about the Franciscan order and we learned about the Dominican order. They both started out as just good and righteous. But over time, both will become corrupt. Okay? The Franciscans become corrupt because people want to give them property. Okay? The Dominicans become corrupt because they have too much power. Okay? They have the power of life and death over people and they spread throughout Europe in order to be the army of the Catholic Church. Okay?

I've noticed that this is something that Dante likes to do. Like he likes to roll call people. Like I remember reading about Dante roll calling people in hell. Like he condemned a bunch of people who are still alive to hell. And there's a place in hell for them. And basically, he's making a goody list and a bad list here. Can I say it like that?

Yes. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. Right. This is a way for him to try to structure the world and also to make sense of what's going on in the world. Okay. Basically, from his perspective, he has a power to judge people. So those that are doing wrong, he can put in hell. Those that he knows that did good, for example, his patrons, he puts into heaven. Okay. All right. Okay. Another thing that I want to talk about is we assume that whatever he writes is intentional, meaning it's a conscious decision on his part to frame the way things are.

Okay. Yes.

Do we have any, like, Dostoevsky wrote to his brother all the time and he's like, this is what I'm thinking. Are there any letters that exist of Dante?

Yeah. So there are lots of documents. So Dante was a published poet before the Divine Comedy. The Divine Comedy is his last act but he also wrote many different works as well. And you know, it's really strange because none of his works received the same acclaim as the Divine Comedy, but he was sure he was the greatest poet in the world. And he was sure that in his lifetime he'd be recognized as the greatest poet in the world. Excuse me. Get what he wanted.

Well, what happens when we read the Inferno, what's happening is that he places himself with the same status as Virgil and the other great Latin epic poets. Okay. So, already he's conceived himself as a legendary poet even though he's not that famous at this point. Even though he's not recognized as the greatest poet at this time, he is confident that he will be recognized in his lifetime. It doesn't work out that way. He will die after he finishes the Divine Comedy and people will recognize the Divine Comedy as a work of genius after he dies, but not during his lifetime.

Sorry, I have a question. I just have a question, you know, do you think that you really think that he's appointed? Because, you know, yes, the people paid money for him to be appointed, or is it just people right now we thought that he was appointed? So what I mean is, what was the purpose of his writing if there's nobody who paid money for him to do that? Then there must be some purpose for himself to write down such a long poem, you know, we can call a masterpiece, or he can just write by himself just to not worry or care about the readers. Is that what you mean? Okay.

By reading their work.

Yeah. But we can read a lot of work, but how do we know what's great and what's not? If the work persists throughout the course of history, like over time, if it survives.

Yeah. But how does it survive over time? I guess people have to, like, maintain it, right? Citation, you know, No, no, no, no.

I think we just know if the work is great, we just know the work is great. Like it's Yeah, but how do we know?

We just know it.

No, but I mean why? How?

Like the contents have been proven by This is not a hard question.

Okay. Yes.

It resonates with our experience. And what do we call this? Truth and beauty, right? You understand? Like if people read the Nikolai and they think, "Oh my god, it made me cry. Oh my god, that's so beautiful." No one would bother to keep it around, right? It's truth and beauty that makes the Divine Comedy a great work of poetry. It's the same. It's no different from, like, why do you go to a concert and pay 50 bucks, or I've never been to a concert. I don't know how much they cost.

Like they can take away everything you own in this world, but your connection to your ancestors and the great deeds of your ancestors, they will never go away. They cannot take that away.

Yeah. Okay. So, what this is saying is that you'll be remembered for your actions. Okay. Just as the actions of your father were remembered, just as the actions of your grandfather were remembered. Okay? That's what you will leave to the world. Not your wealth, not your achievements, but your actions. Okay? Your actions will be celebrated, your actions will be remembered. Anyone else? Why would this, what will this Also it gives a sense of cycle where, like, even if times are bad then, like, just with time it gets better.

Yeah. So there's a plan in motion, So by saying, like, you know, this is what your grandfather did, this is what your father did, you're saying that there is a plan and this is all part of your destiny.

Dante, you came to this point because it was planned from the beginning and your family was just enacting the plan and now you have come to this point and you must do your part as well. Okay. And that is very reassuring, I would think.

So, I'm just going to add on to that and say that I think, at least I think during this time, ancestry was seen as very important and your ancestors were seen to be much wiser than you were. So I think that Dante, by listening to his ancestors reassure him, he felt that, yeah, I'm reassured because I trust these people a lot and they definitely know more than Yeah.

Exactly. Okay. That's a really good point. Okay. So yes, the ancestors are giving you support. Yes. Yes.

And by looking at their achievements, their endeavors, you can also see what they've yet to achieve. And maybe that's for... and that's how you connect the dots. That's how you realize, so this is the part that I would do that they didn't manage to Yes, achieve.

You're part of a family and you have a responsibility to do your part, right? You have to add to us. So yes, you have to find common... and you'll probably die afterwards. You won't achieve any fame but with your achievement will add to our family legacy, right? That's your... So what's happening is that just the idea that you're part of a family legacy, it's removing the ego and fear from him, right? Okay. It's cleansing him. Any other comments or thoughts? Okay. So when we come back from the break, we're going to read not the family history.

But he's not in heaven.

Didn't you say that he let go of fear by talking with his ancestors?

Right, okay, so to understand this is that this is a literary conceit, okay? The way he lets go of his ego and fear is by writing the Divine Comedy, right? And in the Divine Comedy, the scene that he sets to help us appreciate how he's able to let go of his ego and fear is the meeting with his grandfather in heaven. Does that make sense?

So, that means in the beginning of the writing, he's not quite yet, like, enlightenment, right? Like to a state of That's right.

Okay. That's a really important thing to appreciate, where maybe from an early age he's able to conceive the Divine Comedy. Okay. But the very process of writing it is also revelatory and enlightening. Do you understand? All right. And so he will change as a person through the process of writing the Divine Comedy. It's the same thing as reading the Divine Comedy, where I'm sure by reading it you yourself are going through a spiritual and emotional alchemy, right? You're thinking much more deeply about who you are, you're thinking much more deeply about your relationship with the world, and maybe your heart is opening up. Well, it's the same thing, or it's obviously the same if you write the thing, right? Because what's happening is that the poetry is a revelation from God, okay? You are co-creating the process, but what you're really doing is you're just a scribe for God, right?

Please read.

"Like the one who still makes fathers wary of sons, when he had heard insinuations and, to be assured, came to Clymene, such was I and such was I seen to be by Beatrice and by the holy lamp that earlier had shifted place for me. Therefore my lady said to me, 'Display the flame of your desire, that it may be seen well stamped with your internal seal. Not that we need to know what you'd reveal, but that you learn the way that would disclose your thirst, and you be quenched by what we pour.' "Oh my dear root, who since you rise so high, can see the point in which all times are present.

Okay. Stop. Okay. All right. So, what he's referring to is the fact that in the Inferno and in the Purgatorio, Virgil was his guide. And during this journey Dante met individuals who would give him glimpses into his future. Okay. And this is the final prophecy. Keep on going. "Verse 25. Thus my desire would be appeased if I might know what fortune is approaching me. The arrow one foresees arrives more gently. So did I speak to the same living light that spoke to me before. As Beatrice had wished, what was my wish was now confessed, not with the maze of words that used to snare the fools upon this earth before the Lamb of God who takes away our sins was slain, but with words plain and unambiguous, that loving father, hidden yet revealed by his own smile, replied: 'Contingency, while not extending past the book in which your world of matter has been written, is all depicted in the eternal vision.

"Verse 49. This is willed already, sought for, soon to be accomplished by the one who plans and plots where every day Christ is both sold and bought."

Okay. So, the man who will plan and plot is the pope. Okay. So, the pope is going to plot your exile and the removal of your faction from Florence so that you can never ever return. Okay, this is the pope. He is corrupt. He buys and sells salvation. Keep on going.

"Verse 52. The blame, as usual, will be cried out against the injured party, but just vengeance will serve as witness to the truth that wields it. You shall leave everything you love most dearly. This is the arrow that the bow of exile shoots first. You are to know the bitter taste of others' bread, how salt it is, and know how hard a path it is for one who goes descending and ascending others' Okay.

All right. So, this is the complete opposite of the vision, the prophecy in the Aeneid, right? Where Aeneas is told about the glory that awaits Rome. And here it's the complete opposite, where Dante is told, yeah, the only thing that awaits you is exile. You'll be blamed for the exile. You lose everything and you will depend on the mercy, the generosity of others. In other words, you're going to be a beggar all your life, Dante. You'll be a beggar until the end of your life. Yes.

Could this be seen as drawing a parallel between himself and the experiences of that guy Aeneas, I think his name is, from Troy, and the suffering of Christ? Like, could he be drawing this comparison that he is suffering to bring about greatness later?

Yeah, that's exactly the parallel. So you say two things. Okay. Yes, clearly he is referencing Aeneas and his journey and the prophecy from the Aeneid. Okay. Because the Aeneid is basically his template to write the Divine Comedy. But you also point out Jesus is not really mentioned in the Divine Comedy, guys, right? He's referenced, but he's not mentioned directly. Well, he is mentioned directly, but he doesn't appear in the Divine Comedy, right? And so you can make the imaginative leap that Dante is really presenting himself as a Christ figure in the Divine Comedy.

"Verse 61. And what will be most hard for you to bear will be the scheming, senseless company that is to share your fall into this valley. Against you they will be insane, completely ungrateful and profane. And yet soon after, not you, but they will have their brows blood dread of their insensate acts. The proof will be in the effects. And thus your honor will be best kept if your party is yourself. Your first refuge and your first inn shall be the courtesy of the great Lombard, he who on the ladder bears the sacred bird."

Okay, so when Dante is exiled, he's exiled with his political faction, right? The White Guelphs. And obviously when their faction, they're angry about this. They want vengeance. So they're plotting how to get back and kill their enemies, the Black Guelphs. And what the grandfather is saying to Dante is do not partake in this politics. These people have gone insane with hatred and blood lust. Okay? They can only end up dead. You have to not only live in poverty, not only must you be a beggar, but you must abandon everyone you know in order for you to seek the true path.

Like I know that the urge to avenge yourself is extremely strong and it will be hard for him to give up his anger, to give up vengeance, but the truth is, like, passion is like a cup within us and a cup can only hold so much water. So if you fill the cup with hatred, with vengeance, then you have no place for God, and what Dante is doing is clearing out the hatred, the vengeance, so he has more place in his cup for God.

By writing the Inferno, by going on this journey into hell to see that hatred, vengeance can only lead you into hell. Okay? It's something that he must experience for himself in order to cleanse himself. That's why you must first go to hell before you go to heaven, because you must experience for yourself that anger and hatred can only lead in one direction. Okay. All right. Let's keep on going. "Verse 73. And so benign will be his care for you that with you, too, in giving and in asking, that shall be first which is with others last.

Okay. Okay, so now he's just sucking up to his patron, right? He's in exile. His patron is the one who is financing the writing of the Divine Comedy. He's saying what a great guy this guy is. He's selfless. He will do great things. Okay. Keep on.

"Verse 85. His generosity is yet to be so notable that even enemies will never hope to treat it silently. Put trust in him and in his benefits. His gifts will bring much metamorphosis. Rich men and beggars will exchange their states. What I tell you about him you will bear inscribed within your mind, but hide it there." And he told things beyond belief, even for those who will yet see them. Then he added, "Son, these are glosses of what you had heard. These are the snares that hide beneath brief years. Yet I'd not have you envying your neighbors.

"'For if at the first taste your words molest, they will, when they have been digested, leave as living nourishment. As does the wind, so shall your outcry do, the wind that sends its roughest blows against the highest peaks. There's little cause for claiming honor. Therefore, within these spheres, upon the mountain, and in the dismal valley, you were shown only those souls that unto fame are known. Because the mind of one who hears will not put doubt to rest, nor put trust in you, if given examples with their roots unknown and hidden, or arguments too dim, too unapparent.'" Okay, great.

Thank you. All right, so what we're going to do now is we're going to try to put everything together. Okay, this morning we discussed the central dilemma facing Dante. Okay, first of all, he has to make sense of why his life sucks, why he's in exile, why he's begging people for charity. At the same time, he's trying to figure out why the world sucks. Why is it that there's so much chaos, there's so much infighting, there's so much treachery, there's so much hatred, there's so much vengeance. And we talked about how previously there's hope that great individuals such as Francis and Dominic would change the character of the Catholic Church so that it would become less corrupt.

So the difference between Dante and most people who go through exile and isolation is that he's given a preview. He's given a peek behind the curtain. When we say that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven, the rich man will say to you, "Well, I can't see that far." Or maybe they don't have the willpower to keep themselves from being wealthy and being evil. However, Dante has had a glimpse of what lies behind the veil and he knows that his life has a purpose and has this guiding light, this actual thing that keeps him going Okay.

Yes. Let's be more specific and concrete. Okay. Let's think about this. Let's imagine Dante, if he didn't actually experience hell, purgatory, and heaven. Okay, his father appears to him, his grandfather appears to him in a dream. Okay, he's at home. His grandfather appears to him and says that, my grandson, in two years' time you'll be exiled from the city you love, the city you were born, the city that your family has inhabited for... How would he feel? Despair, right? But after he's been through this journey, the same vision, the same faith gives him hope and purpose.

Well, also as a poet, it's a great way to focus your energy into creativity. Well, like if you take off all the distractions and you put all your energy into creating, then he can think, okay, maybe it's this time, this period of my life where I can just put everything I know and everything I can accomplish.

Okay. Okay. So that's a good start. Okay. If he is to achieve divine harmony, he needs to go into isolation. Okay. This isolation is going to last 20 years. By the way, it's going to take about 20 years to finish the Divine Comedy.

Yeah. Okay. And that's not wrong. And that's exactly what Francis and Dominic felt as well. Okay. But let's think about this. Okay. You're Dante and you're writing the Divine Comedy not for yourself, not for God, but for others to read as well. So you want others to be as inspired as you in serving God, right? Do you understand? So he has to somehow convince you to be like him. Yeah. I mean, of course he understands that the exile and the isolation will allow him to write the Divine Comedy, but he needs to move you, inspire you in a way that allows you to understand why he's doing what he's doing and also to want to emulate him, right?

Okay. All right. So let's think about the sequence of events. Okay. This prophecy doesn't happen in hell. It doesn't happen in purgatory. It happens in paradise. And it is the last prophecy before he goes and fulfills his destiny which is to meet God. Okay. So what does he learn in hell, purgatory and paradise which prepares him to accept this prophecy? What is it?

Maybe it's because he witnessed the light and the greatness and the beauty of God with his own eyes and that gives him the courage to continue.

Okay. Okay. Again, you're being too general. I want specifics. What did we discuss these past two days and what impact would they have on Dante and how they would change the way he sees the world? Okay. Well, ask yourself this question. These past two days, how has reading Dante changed the way you've seen yourself and the world? Think about this question. Okay? Use your intuition. Use your imagination. How have I changed in the way that I see the world?

Well, you see the human himself as like the middle of the universe and then he is like what embodies the universe and through our actions we can like improve the universe or person it Okay, yeah, exactly.

First, the first thing he recognizes is that you matter, your actions matter regardless of who you are, you do matter. Okay, I mean, she did something really, really good. I mean, she gave herself to God and then she broke this vow and it matters. Okay, in her mind it's like, what? I mean, God's really, really busy, right? God's taking care of the universe and I'm just like this little princess in this poor little place and I break a vow but I hurt no one and I was faithful to him all this time, but my one little action at this one time does matter.

Yes, I think it's also important to remember that this is a two-sided coin. Like on one hand, your actions matter and you could change the universe. On the other hand, your misactions matter and your misactions could make the universe worse. So instead of this constant fear of damnation or constant fear of hellfire, Dante replaced it with a humanistic fear of what will my actions truly do? Like he has taken the reins back from the devil and he's given the reins to himself.

Yes. Okay. This is really important, guys. Okay. At this time in history the Catholic Church tells you to fear God. You understand? Live a life of fear. Do not do anything because you'll probably screw it up. Right? And what we learn is God is love. God will never judge you. Only you judge yourself. Therefore, just live the life you want to live. Live your best life. Aspire to greatness. And that's what God wants. Okay? God wants will. He wants desire. He wants you to be your creative best. So don't worry about angering him.

That the fear of the unknown stops you from aspiring to the higher.

Yeah. Right. Good. Yeah. Don't be afraid. Just love. Just trust. Okay. Because love is the underlying principle of the universe. God is all love. Okay? Don't be afraid. Take the risk. Take that leap of faith. Good. What else?

Like follow your heart and do the free will and do not be restricted by the material world.

Yes. Exactly. Okay. Don't care about the judgment of others. If God's not going to judge you, no one else is going to judge you. Okay. Just follow your intuition. Just follow your heart. Do what you believe is right. What else? Yes. You have to forgive yourself to be a better person.

Okay. Yes. Okay. Let go of the past. Forgive yourself. Good. What else?

You need to care about poor guys because if you care about them, even give them money, maybe you will go to heaven with him.

No, that's not what my topic... Also the most important thing of course is that there is intentionality in the universe. We are all part of God's grand design. Remember the metaphor that Beatrice uses is the body, right? God is the mind. We're all part of the body. So we are moving towards God's plan. Okay? All right. So this is all that we've learned these past few days. And think about how if you learn, if you believe these things, you no longer fear exile. You no longer fear isolation. Why?

Well, because in your heart, you know that you're doing the right thing. Like, if from your instincts and your intuition, you didn't know if you did the right thing, then obviously it wouldn't make sense. But if you know from just your intuition that you know the right thing, then it's probably the right thing. You don't need logic or something to like figure things out. You just need to So the most important thing, and you say this is, like, knows it's not his fault for his exile and isolation.

This is really important, guys, right? It's not my fault. I didn't do anything wrong. Why is this? Yeah.

So this is something that confuses me. Like earlier on you said that if there's a will, there's a way. And you used the example of Piccarda and Piccarda is in a similar situation to Dante. She is oppressed by a militaristic force and she is forced to go against her vows, and well, how is Dante's situation different? If he believed in will so much, why couldn't he have used the will to find a way to stay in Florence?

Okay. All right. So you raised this question. Okay. And the answer, their purpose is different. Do you understand? Piccarda's will is always to serve God. To be married to God, to live in the nunnery, right? What is Dante's purpose? What is his purpose?

To write the Divine Comedy, guys. Okay? Do you understand? That's what his will is. His will is not to be the mayor of Florence. His will is not to be the pope. His will is not to conquer his enemies. His will is to be the poet. The greatest poet in human history. That is what he wants. Okay. Do you understand? Yes.

So, like, as we mentioned, everything has a consequence and then, like, Dante did end up dying because of malaria after he finished the Divine Comedy. Do you think that is his consequence? Like he had fulfilled his will of writing this poetry and then after that his mission is complete, and do you think that is like his will or like God's will or like Okay, so that's a great question.

Okay, why is it that he died after he finished the Divine Comedy? And I'm going to say something really strange for you guys but let me ask you this question. Do you think Dante was a healthy person?

Probably not.

Probably not, guys. Okay.

Probably he was sick most of his life, right? And that's probably why he had the visions that he did because he spent most of the time in bed.

So, I would argue that if it weren't for the Divine Comedy, he'd probably be dead at 40. He started the Divine Comedy at maybe around 40 and he died in his 50s. Do you understand?

Okay. I mean, like, it was his will that kept him going, Right?

So you could say, well, it was because he spent so much effort into running the man that he exhausted his body and he caught malaria and then he died. But you can also argue, well, the guy was probably not healthy to begin with. Okay, Most of these boys are not athletes.

They're not the healthiest people you will meet.

They're often, like, you know, daydreaming or getting drunk or something. Okay. But they're not working out and stuff. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So something I'm curious about is Dante's attitude towards predetermination. Like if you look at this passage. So he's basically prophesying to himself, like, at his time while he was writing this passage, all of these things that the angel has said to an allegedly past version of himself have already happened. So he is trying to frame this as, okay, I've been told that this is going to happen. This is not a surprise to me at all. Which just seems very Okay.

All right. Okay. Let's be clear. Okay, Dante is writing this not to console himself, okay? But to give us hope. Does that make sense? Okay. Because we are Dante in the poem. So when we read this, we shouldn't feel despair for the fact that we're going into exile. It should give us hope. We're trying to figure out why this is the case. All right. Number one, and this is the most important, is we know it's not our fault, right? Okay. And this is important because what's the number one reason why divorce traumatizes children?

You know, it's not your fault. Now, I'm interested in how he just accepted this fate.

Cuz if it's his fault, he was like, "Yeah, I deserve this," but it's not his fault. He's like, "Why did this kind of thing, this kind of accident, happen to me?" And is he going to feel kind of unfair or Okay.

Right. Right, right, right. Yeah. Go on.

Yeah. Because to follow on to his fate is part of his destiny. So he embraces his destiny. And it would be, what's next. Embracing his Yeah.

He now appreciates this is just my fate. And it's part of God's plan and it's my purpose to write the Divine Comedy. I don't know why. I don't know what impact it will have, but given the fact that my grandfather told me that I'm going to go into exile and isolation, it's not my fault. And I know for a fact that God loves everyone, that God has a plan. There's a reason, a perfect reason, for everything. And I'm part of this plan, then I should just do what God tells me to do, which is write the Divine Comedy, right?

So to sum it up, your idea is that Dante believes in predetermination by God, right?

Okay. All right. So let's think about this. Okay. This is a good question. Okay. This is actually a really good question. So thank you. Okay. We just said these past two days that free will is a fundamental law of the universe. We also say that if there's a prophecy then there has to be predetermination.

Because if there's no ordinal relationship between those things, predetermination is just determination. There's no what comes first and what comes next.

Okay. Yes. Well, I just say that free will is like there's like a plan, but we can choose through free will to either follow it or not follow it. Like there is definitely a plan for every person, but you don't have to follow. There's like people that go against their intuition, right? Like they do.

That's right. Okay. So remember what free will is. Okay. God loves you. God is trying to pull you back to him because there's an aspect of God inside of you, right? You desire to return to God. Okay, this is the fundamental logic of the universe. God loves you. God's calling you back to him. You love God. You're returning to God, but you have the free will to deny God and turn away from God. That is the free will. Yes. So a follow-up question. So if God has a plan and God allows you to use your free will to turn away from the plan, then let's look at the people who prosecuted Dante, who drove him out of Florence.

Those people sin on their own, on behalf of their own free will, right? It's not God's plan for them to do what they did.

In that case, how did God know about it?

Okay. Okay. You're assuming God cares what happens here. God doesn't really care what happens here, right? What God's plan is, is for us to return to him. Does that make sense? God is calling for us and we want to return to him. So our actions here is to return to him. Okay? And what happens here on this planet doesn't really impact this grand logic. Does that make... I don't think you made it clear, like, how God knew what the bad guys were going to do if the bad guys really had free will, and if God's plan for these bad people is for them to be bad, how could a good God do this thing?

Right? So in this prophecy, what happens to all these people who have persecuted Dante? They have a worse fate than Dante. Do you understand? Yes. Dante has exile in... But these people have a much worse fate than you do. So what's the problem here?

The problem is if God's plan is for these people to be bad, then how could an almighty good God make people do bad and then condemn them to hell? It's like playing a puppet show. Why would you make the bad puppet? Well, I mean, if you do bad things, bad things are going to happen to you, right? If I hit you, you're going to hit me back.

I think there shouldn't be the dichotomy of bad and good in any serious academic discussion. I mean, we are, you know, in a very complex world and of course there is retribution, there is, you know, good and bad, but we cannot really, you know, just tag anybody or any events just with a very simple, you know, tag of good and bad, which will make discussion very difficult. So I think the minor characters in Dante's life or in Dante's books, you know, are also part of the plan as Dante intended, but you cannot say that their actions are evil and therefore it should not be tolerated by God.

Okay. Yes.

Yeah. I was thinking, I think earlier we were making a point where, like, people do what they think is good based on their judgment. So I was thinking, what if those people were doing what they thought was good, was the right thing, and then they sent Dante into exile but then it was objectively bad because God didn't want it, so that's why they got punished. That was kind of my interpretation. I don't Okay, look, the situation is never as complicated as this.

Sorry. The situation is never as simple as this. Right. But what happened was that Dante was sent into exile and they said to him, "You can come back, but you must confess to certain crimes," and Dante's like, "No, screw you. I didn't do anything wrong."

Do you understand?

Oh, yeah.

So, it's not simple. It's not black and white.

Okay. Okay.

Do you understand?

Okay. Never in life are things black and white.

There are four people here. Okay. So, let's go one by one. Okay. You first. It's also that we're framing the people who exiled Dante, they were doing a bad thing. But if they had been more pure in their thinking and their intentions, maybe they wouldn't have gone against Dante. So maybe God had a good predetermined plan for them, but they went against it because they didn't look at the situation in the right way.

Okay. All right. Okay. So something I want to say is this. Okay. No one is really at fault because the situation in Italy is one of complete chaos and warfare. Okay? It's kill or be killed. So, in their eyes, what they're doing is they're trying to protect their families. They're trying to protect their children. Okay? So this is a problem that Dante is trying to deal with. We live in an evil time where everyone is forced to do evil and so what can we do about it? Okay, that's a question that Dante is facing.

Yeah. Something that came to mind on top of what we just discussed was simplicity. When Dante embraced his destiny to write the Divine Comedy, it simplified his whole world, being down into... It's something that comes to mind, simplicity is close to God. Whatever God is, whatever love is, it's simple. I don't know if that makes No, it makes perfect sense, right?

He now has focus. Before he had doubt, he had ego, he had fear. Now he just has focus. Like, I'll just write the Divine Comedy, I won't die until I finish it. Okay. Now he has complete will. The absolute will is now the contingent will as well. Okay. So that's what this prophecy has done for him. It's given him the future and he knows his place in the universe. Okay. So did you have a comment or question?

Okay. Yeah. Well, maybe the point was that Dante would have never gone through everything if the people did not choose to do evil to him. So, like, it's a bit complicated but they chose to do that, but if they didn't choose that, then through free will Dante would have never gone through all of this. So, like, in the end it wasn't really a plan from God himself.

Right. But what Dante recognizes is that everything has a purpose. Do you understand? Everything has a purpose and that's why he's able to forgive others, because as long as he achieves his purpose then everything

So he still would have achieved his purpose if he wasn't No, he would not have been able to because he would not have been in exile, right?

You need isolation. You need exile in order to write the Divine Comedy.

So he needed other people to persecute him, basically.

But others were going to persecute him anyway because this is all political faction fighting, right? This is all political violence right now.

Okay. All right. Did you have a Yeah.

Because, you know, first of all I think original sin is a kind of thing that's been written in the Bible. It means that every person has sin. This is for sure and you can't say that it's not my fault. You can say this is not my thing. You know, because saying is original sin. Everyone has to be blamed because we steal the apple right from the tree. And secondly, I think the Odyssey is also kind of a thing that maybe influenced, maybe because in the Odyssey, you know, the hero just always has to excel, right?

All right, guys. Okay. So let's now focus on the question. Okay. The question is, Dante is living in a time of pure hopelessness where whatever you do ends up causing even more problems. And so for Dante, what is the solution? What is the only way forward? Okay. And this prophecy tells him, you will go into exile and in isolation, it doesn't say this, but it's to write the Divine Comedy. Okay. So, why would the Divine Comedy be a possible solution to all this chaos and darkness and violence?

And because love is uniting, well, it's a way to just unite everyone whatever the culture or area.

What does the Divine Comedy do and bring to the world that is missing in Europe at this time? It just, like, proposes a solution for people who went through suffering without understanding why they went through suffering, because, like, they went through suffering before because of obedience through the Catholic church but now he proposes a new solution that you can go through suffering because you actually want to make a positive change in the world and not just, like, obey the church.

Okay. But how? Okay. So you suffer and now you can explain your suffering. What do we call this? No. Okay. So think about this. Okay. This is really important. You what? No. No. Think about this. Before the Divine Comedy, this was not present in Europe and because of its absence people committed tremendous violence against each other. People were just fighting all the time. Okay. So Dante decides I must go into isolation, exile, in order to write the Divine Comedy in order to bring this into Europe.

Is it about forgiveness? How people as individuals can forgive themselves and each other? What allows you to forgive someone? What allows you to forgive someone?

To recognize a sin and to recognize it's not necessarily their fault.

To recognize it's not their fault. And how do you do that?

By unconditional love.

Observation is not enough. What else do you need? Let's talk concretely. Okay. No, let's figure, let's talk concretely. Give me an instance. We forgive someone. Okay. Just tell us a story and we'll figure out what's going on. Like if someone gets angry, he hits you and then you just think it's because of his emotions and it's okay. Like

But what allowed you to know it was his

Like knowledge about What knowledge?

Empathy. Yes. Okay. What allows for

Wisdom or like Okay.

When you're saying, when we're saying this person hit me because he's emotional, so he lost control. What are you really doing?

Consideration. Considering the person, you go beyond, you know, you go above him in your knowledge and reasoning.

What does it mean to go above your reasoning and your knowledge?

You put yourself into his shoes or How do you do that though?

What?

The imagination, guys. Okay. Do you understand the imagination? Yes.

I think it's also like looking inside yourself, inside, like before, when Dante was first exiled he was not thinking about all of us. He was thinking about the outside. He was thinking objectively these guys harmed me and objectively I'm so angry about it. But when he looks inside, he can find the strength to continue and the strength to forgive. So he's using this to tell people to look inside, not outside.

Yeah, because empathy is basically imagining what would I do if I were him?

Exactly. Okay. Does that make sense to you? Okay. When you forgive someone, it's an act of imagination, right? Because you're imagining that if I were that person, I would also get angry and hit someone.

Do you understand?

Sometimes it's also knowledge. Like in some cases, you can imagine the person and then sometimes you just know why he's angry, Right?

And that now is a solution, right? If we can increase the imagination of everyone in Europe, this infighting, this chaos, this greed, this corruption would have to decrease. Not come to an end. You can't do that. But it would have to at least decrease. Does that make sense? And before, people lacked an imagination.

It's all about obedience to God. That's the church. The Catholic Church The obedience.

But what emotion was limiting your imagination? What emotion? What emotion limits your imagination? It's what?

Fear. Right? You understand? So let's go back to your instance where someone hits you, right? If you're afraid, what do you do? You hit him back. You understand? So it's the fear that limits your imagination. And at this time in Europe, fear is the dominant emotion. So if Dante is to release people from their fear, he must prove to everyone that God is love. You understand? And once he does that, the imagination now is released and people can be imaginative and this will mark a new age in Europe and basically let Europe conquer the world.

So basically, he's making the unknown known. So, like, people are scared of hell. They're scared of burning in hellfire. And to be honest, they don't really know that heaven exists here. And Dante, in the story here, he's taking a role of a pilgrim and he's going to all these places and he's like a tour guide and he's saying, "Oh guys, this is here. This happens. That happens. As long as you don't do that, this won't happen to you." And he's turning the unknown into a known. And that's how you remove fear.

Okay. So, let's just say that Dante opens a university and says, "In this university, I'm going to teach you to be not afraid of God. And here are the reasons why you should be afraid of God." Okay. Would it work? Probably not. Okay. Probably not because we know that Thomas Aquinas tried it. It didn't work. The Franciscans tried it. Didn't work. The Dominicans tried it. Didn't work. Okay. But Dante, he was able to prove that God is love. How?

He has to live it.

Excuse me.

He has to live it and he has to write the Divine Comedy to channel himself as the example.

Okay. Yes. Okay. Okay. The Divine Comedy is what proves it. Do you understand? Because what is the Divine Comedy? Yes. Go Well, you know God loves you because he gave you the free will.

Like I mean the Divine Comedy says that through the will you can decide your own fate or your own destinies.

But that's just logic. That's just reason. I'm saying, like, how do you convince someone that God is love?

Right. And it has to do with the Divine Comedy.

All right. So what's going on? Why would the Divine Comedy prove that God is love? And we just said that if Dante were to open a university and lecture on God is love, it wouldn't work. No one would... they need to let the readers or the audience go on the journey like he did to embody and to empathize.

What is art, guys? Tell me, what is art? Why is art different from everything else?

It's like the difference between an encyclopedia definition of the emotion anger and a piece of art titled "Anger." So, like, the encyclopedia edition tells you, it doesn't show you. It tells you what anger is. It's quickening of the pulse, cortisol, etc., etc. But the art, you look at the art and you feel it for yourself. You can interpret it for yourself even. But with your intuition, you arrive at the same general conclusion.

And art is a channel of consonance between the creator and the observer or the experiencer. Truth, truth, because the Divine Comedy, if the Divine Comedy contains the truth and reflects the truth over time, across dimensions, across different mediums, it'll persist and therefore it's proven Yes, okay.

Yes, did you have a... Yeah, art is just like expression of ideas that you get from God. You don't, like, philosophy for example is just like logical thinking and you can do that by yourself but to express art you need a higher form, to be inspired by something.

Okay. Okay. All right. So let's be very specific. Okay. Again, use your intuition. Did you have a comment or It's a very simple one.

So, I feel like it's just kind of similar to how the Divine Comedy stays longest because we could resonate with it so we believe in it. So, that's why it's the Okay.

Okay. Yes. But I want to be specific. Okay, I want each and every one of you to think of a movie or a song or a painting or novel that has changed you. Can you think of something that has changed you? A piece of art that has changed you. Okay, just name it.

For example, like the, you know, the movie the Terminator because, you know, the movie that That is not a piece of art, by the way.

Okay.

Inception. Inception. Okay. Yeah. Bruce Lee.

Boo Lee. The movies, Bruce Lee. Okay. His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman.

What? What? What? What?

His Dark Materials.

Is that a novel?

By what?

It's about growing up and it's about Oh, so Pullman, His Dark Materials.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. All right. Okay. Yes. I've actually read that. So I actually know this example. Okay. But tell us why it's changed you as a person. Like Philip Pullman, reading his Dark Materials has given me a new perspective on what happens after I die. So this is kind of personal but I used to be a Christian. I used to have this vague faith that if I was good I would go to heaven and everyone who is bad towards me will go to hell. And when I read His Dark Materials it's like being freed and being burdened all at once.

Okay. So this is an example of transformation, right? Your worldview has changed. The way you perceive yourself, the way you perceive the world is different. But what was it about His Dark Materials that made this transformation possible?

Personally I would say it's the story. It doesn't force a moral upon me. I just read the story and I follow the journey of the protagonist and I get empathized with them.

Okay. All right. All right. Okay. Yes. Okay. Did you have a question or... Yeah, I think it names something in yourself that used to be unnameable that you don't know how to explain, and someone did it for you and through their music you feel those emotions in your heart that, like, finally now you had this realization that, oh, this really speaks to me and now I know how to Resonance.

Yeah. All right. So let's go back to His Dark Materials. Okay. Let me ask you this question.

Did you cry when you read His Dark Materials?

Did you laugh?

Yeah. Sometimes.

Were you angry?

Yes. Extremely.

Okay. So, do you understand, guys? First and foremost, art is an intense emotional experience. You guys understand this? If a song moved you, the movie touched you, it's because it was an intense emotional experience for you. Okay, that's one. Two is this intensity of emotions. What it does is it goes into you or it opens you and allows for the entry of the ideas into you. Okay? And these ideas, these words, these songs, these melodies, it's almost like a virus that grows over time, right? So the transformation doesn't happen like today, but happens over time.

Wouldn't they, like, ban the Divine Comedy in Thrones because it's from Dante and they accept him?

That's a really good point. Okay. So, if you analyze this and you're like, "Wait a minute here. It's heretical. It's heresy. It's critical of the Catholic Church." They were not the banners. Why not?

That you're wrong. No, they were not... it already got into a force of itself. So any attempt to ban it will just backfire. Oh no, there's a very good reason why they would not ban the comedy. Why not?

He would go against God, to me.

He would go against God because they're, like, divinely inspired pieces of work.

Exactly. Do you understand this? Okay. To try to burn down a painting, to try to destroy an artwork, would be to go against God. Who dares goes against God, right? Because at this time in history, you see Leonardo paint the Mona Lisa, right? You ask, Mona Lisa, "Hey, Leonardo, how were you able to do this?" He told you, I didn't do this. God did this, right?

Yeah. Again, I'm gonna nitpick your logic here. So, you said that Dante's Divine Comedy and the Renaissance occurred in the same city, Florence. And you say that that's because of Dante's or by extension of God's influence. And I would have to say that there are genuine historical reasons why Florence is a fertile ground for the Renaissance. There is the inflow of trade caravans and there's its fractured nature. A fractured state actually contributes to a flourishing of diverse ideas and there is a status as a city instead of a suburb.

I don't dispute this and if you talk to any academic he'll explain to you these very reasons. Okay, you have the Medici, the banking family, who are the patrons of the arts. You have the fact that this is a city-state system, so there's no central authority. The pope cannot enforce his authority on Florence. You had, as you point out, the trade, the wealth. There are lots and lots of really good reasons. Okay. But my question is why Florence and not Venice or Genoa or any other of these Italian city-states, right?

Okay. Well, what I would like to do is teach Dante to the entire world and we'll see which parts of the world accept Dante. And I guarantee you the parts of the world that accept Dante, regardless of where they are, it could be in China, it could be in the Middle East, it could be in Africa, I don't care which parts, but I guarantee you this, whichever parts of the world make Dante part of the curriculum, make every child read Dante, I guarantee you they will flourish more than other parts of the world.

Yes, That's super powerful.

We shall see that. Yeah. And that's my mission. Okay. This is why I'm teaching Dante right now. It's part of a larger mission to spread Dante around the world. And I guarantee you those parts of the world that do love Dante will flourish. What does Florence mean, by the way? Do you guys Fenzi spring, right?

I I thought it meant flourishing.

Yeah. Flourish. Spring. Flora. Same Right?

Okay. And was it Greek for flourishing? Do you guys know? What's it Greek for formonia? Anyway, I went off topic anyway. Okay, but you see how what's happened, right? Dante is facing dilemmas. Okay, his life sucks. All of Europe sucks. Okay, and then he has this prophecy and he understands, okay, now my mission is to write the Divine Comedy. Okay, that's why I'm going to exile. That's why I'm going into... Because by writing the Divine Comedy, I can bring the imagination to the world.

You said that any country, any region that adopts Dante as part of the core curriculum would flourish and I would just like to point out that the country that most definitely does this right now is probably Italy and I don't know what's your opinion on how they're doing but I don't think. Yeah.

Yes. Well, actually, I was in Italy in Florence or near Florence and I've talked to people who studied the Divine Comedy for six years and they all say that they hated it because the teacher didn't, like, teach it like you. It's like a totally different experience. They like only looked at the grammar and at the language, but they didn't actually understand what you're saying about the law of an imagination. It's like really plain in it.

Yeah. Okay.

Like they don't teach it the same way as you teach it.

Look, look, look, look. You can make anything terrible by testing it, right? Like you just add tests to anything. It's going to be terrible because tests just force you to abandon your imagination, right? And that's why I say you want to read the Divine Comedy, you have to use your intuition, your imagination, okay? And you just truly understand it, then you will transcend. Does that make... All right. Okay. All right. So now let's talk more about faith, love, and hope. Okay. I want to be very specific here about what these things are.

Okay.

There's going to be a test. Yes. So, before Dante can meet God, he has to prove he's worthy. And to do that, you have to pass an examination or an oral examination. So there are going to be three apostles, Peter, John, and James. And each of these apostles is going to test Dante on a concept.

"Canto 24. Oh fellowship that has been chosen for the blessed Lamb's great supper, where he feeds you so as always to fulfill your need, since by the grace of God this man receives foretaste of something fallen from your table before death has assigned his time its limit, direct your mind to his immense desire. Quench him somewhat, you who forever drink from that source which he has sought and longing seek." So, Beatrice and these delighted souls formed companies of spheres around fixed poles, flaming as they revolved as comets glow. And just as in a clock's machinery, to one who watches them, the wheels turn so that while the first wheel seems to rest, the last wheel flies, so did those circling dancers, as they danced to different measures, swift and slow, make me a judge of what their riches were.

Okay, stop. Okay. All right. So, guys, for homework, not only do I want you to reread what we discussed today, but I also want you to look at artwork, imagery inspired by the Divine Comedy, okay? It's a very visual poem. And there's lots of paintings, lots of artwork inspired by it. So that you know how creative it is, but you also recognize how crazy all this is. Okay.

"Verse 19. From that sphere which I noted as most precious, I saw a flame come forth with so much gladness that none it left behind had greater brightness. And that flame whirled three times around Beatrice, while singing so divine a song that my imagination cannot shape it for me. My pen leaps over it. I do not write. Our fantasy, and all the more so speech, are far too gross for painting folds so deep. 'Oh you who pray to us with such devotion, my holy sister, with your warm affection, you have released me from that lovely sphere.' "So after he had stopped his motion, did the blessed flame breathe forth unto my lady, and what he said I have reported here.

Stop. Okay. All right. So what's happening is that Peter the apostle is now testing Dante and the first question is what is faith, and what Dante is going to do is he's going to repeat what Paul wrote in Hebrews. Okay, which is faith. What does he say? Faith is the substance of the things we hope for and is the evidence of things not seen. Okay. All right. So, this entire situation is kind of weird. Why is it weird or paradoxical?

So why would he, like, recite his words and not, like, the words of Jesus or So I think despise is a hard...

Is harsh. Okay. Yeah. He's critical of the Catholic Church.

Right? Okay. He thinks the Catholic Church should be reformed, but you know, he doesn't believe the Catholic Church should be abolished. But something weird is going on. Yes.

The weird thing going on is that all this while Dante is talking about imagination, intuition, and importance of looking into himself. And he criticized the traditional mode of theological learning, which is to recite things and then spew it back out when it comes to your own interest. And what he's doing right here is that he's reciting something and he's spilling it out. So what is he doing Yeah.

So it is a bit weird, don't you think? Right. So, Dante is saying, you know, use your imagination, use your will, and now he's partaking in an examination, right? Hebrews, are you looking for Hebrews? Hebrews 11. Yes, Hebrews 11 is where this is. Okay. So, maybe we'll just read a bit of that. Okay.

"Now, faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."

Yeah. Right. But it goes on, right? So, maybe you can have the whole passage. Okay. Okay. So, there's something really weird going on because where are they? They're in heaven, right? So, basically, who can you have questioning Dante about... Yeah. Well, no, but how about Paul? Because Paul's the expert on faith, right? If you're in heaven, you can access anyone. Get Paul to ask Dante about faith. So, clearly this is a paradox, right? And this is another way that Dante is signaling that he differs from the official teachings.

Okay. Stop. Okay. All right. Okay. So you guys understand what's going on. Okay. So faith is the idea that you understand the nature of reality, that it's all designed by God. Everything that happens is for a purpose and everything is leading to this point in history. That is what faith is. Faith is the understanding of God. And here again this is really important. Dante would agree with Paul's understanding of faith and that's why he repeats Paul's understanding. Okay. But at the same time, we need to be aware that Paul is not present.

"Verse 64. 'And is the evidence of things not seen. And this I take to be its quiddity.' And then I heard: 'You understand precisely if it is fully clear to you why he has first placed faith among the substances and then defines it as an evidence.' I next: 'The deep things that on me bestow their image here are hid from sight below, so that their being lies in faith alone, and on that faith the highest hope is founded. And thus it is that faith is called a substance. And it is from this faith that we must reason, deducing what we can from syllogisms without our being able to see more. Thus faith is also called an evidence.'" Okay.

All right. Okay. So again, he repeats Paul and now he's going to make adjustments to Paul, right? So faith for Paul is the evidence of things unseen. It is the divine plan. It is what keeps the world together. It is what moves history. That is what faith is. What does Dante say and how does it change Paul? This is a really hard question, but let's try to figure this out.

Okay. This is really hard. Okay. And I may get this wrong, okay? But I think there's a difference between what Paul says and what Dante says. Paul says that faith is the belief in a grand plan. That faith is what moves the universe.

So he is saying that, let me use an example here. So let's say that you don't follow Dante's advice and you use logic to define everything. So you go to logic your way out of believing that God exists. However, what Dante is saying here is that you just have to take it as a matter of faith that God exists and then you can build on the fact that God exists and then figure out what you want to know.

Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. All right. So, okay. I'm going to tell you what I think this is saying and I could be wrong. Okay. And I'll just say what I'm saying and we'll see if it matches with the text. Okay. I think in Paul's formulation, what he's saying is that the plan already exists and you just have to believe it exists. Okay? It's sort of passive. Does it make sense? What Dante is saying is that faith is the underlying substance of the... and it's what moves the universe and it's from faith we can build things.

The deep things that on me bestow their image here are hid from sight below, so that their being lies in faith alone. And on that faith the highest hope is founded. And thus it is that faith is called a substance. And it is from this faith that we must reason, deducing what we can from syllogisms without our being able to see more. Thus faith is also called an evidence."

Okay. What do you guys think? Do you think that this matches the text?

Yes. I have a question. Yes. What are the deep things that on me bestow the image here?

Where is it In the first line.

The things that on me bestow their image here are hid from sight below so that their being lies in faith alone. So I mean he's talking about things like angels and demons and God itself, right? The deep things, the things underlying reality, the things below reality

To me

Forces, like underlying forces Things you can't see, right?

Spirits, right? So these spirits must exist through something and he's saying it must exist through faith alone, right? But then what's faith then and how do these spirits come into being? It must be an active force. The imagination, right? And the imagination can only come from us or from God. And I don't... I'm just interpreting, say it's coming from us, I think. Okay.

Yes. Yes. And also, like, reason must be based on the imagination, right? You must believe God exists. You must believe there is a plan to the universe. And from that you can reason things out. Okay? Reason and imagination are not in conflict with each other. Reason is built on top of imagination. Okay? So again, we can argue back and forth. And I wish we actually had a Dantean scholar in here who actually knows this stuff. Okay? But I'm just guessing. Okay. This is what my intuition is saying he's saying.

Let's I look forward to rereading and I mean this is part of, okay, what's very important about this text.

Okay. So we'll figure this out. Okay. So go and do some research, guys. Okay. Tell me what this is actually saying. I think he is suddenly changing the meaning of Paul. Okay, Paul again is passive. He's active. What Dante is saying that's very important is that faith is imagination. When you believe in God, you also have to believe in yourself. You also have to imagine. Okay. Faith is an active act of imagining. Does that make sense?

Oh yeah. So what do you mean, faith? It's a kind of thing you have to determine your mind to believe it so it will exist, or if you don't believe it, then faith just does not exist.

Okay. Okay. So let's clarify this. Okay. In science, right? God doesn't exist. If you can't see it, it doesn't exist. Is that correct? Right. And what Dante is saying is that if you do it that way, you'll never get anywhere. All right. And yes.

Well, but no, but energy is something that you talk about in science and energy you can't see. So energy can be God Sorry.

Sorry. It's not something you can't see. Something you can't measure.

You can measure energy.

Right. Okay.

So if you can't actually measure it, it doesn't exist. But then it's like you have all these holes in science, which is like, what is consciousness, right? No one is allowed to ask this question, what is consciousness So I'm actually really interested in this question.

So, like, Dante has been shown these deep things, right? He has been shown these angels and Beatrice is leading him around like this. I mean the Dante in the story, not Dante the author. So is the Dante in the story's faith therefore diminished because he has seen and has proof of these things, because he no longer believes in him on marital faith Okay, that's a really interesting question and I think the simple answer...

But does anyone have a response to this? The Divine Comedy is a product of his... Do you understand? It's only by having faith could he write the Divine Comedy. No, no, no. I'm talking about the Dante in the story, not Dante the author.

Oh. Okay. Yeah. Go ahead.

Yeah. I'm just really looking forward to understanding what love in this case in Dante's mind is because it looks like faith, faith looks like love, sounds like love. So, Yeah.

So I think, you know, I try to read this text on different layers.

So the fundamental layer for me is the textualist layer. So I'm trying to read everything in Italian and in the presentation of the concept of faith, I think I'm... I'm not fluent in Italian but I think the word used for evidence actually is argomento. So it's not evidence. So there I think there is a major divergence between the English and the Italian text. So if we take evidence away and change it to argument.

So English is not an exact line, it is faith. I'm talking about evidence. Evidence in Italian is evidence and in the Dante text it is argument. It never uses evidence. So it is argument. So wait, sorry. Okay. So okay. Let's think about what the line actually means. Faith is the evidence of things unseen. What does that line actually mean?

That it tells you your senses, you cannot trust your senses, cuz your senses didn't catch it. But Wait, right, there's no evidence this exists.

Do you understand? It's all faith. Faith is the only evidence. Faith is the only argument.

I think the original word, argument, is the perfect word because it is just an argument. It is just, you know, a perception. You don't have to deduct anything from it. That's faith Right.

Okay. Yes. Okay. So that's the idea. Okay. There is no evidence. Okay. Beyond faith. You have to believe it exists otherwise it doesn't exist. That's it. There's no point in arguing about this because there's absolutely no evidence otherwise.

Yeah. Yeah. I know. So back to my question about the fictional Dante. Is the fictional Dante's faith diminished because he has proof of what he used to believe in?

Okay, so this is how I would understand. Okay, Dante the pilgrim would not have been allowed to go on this journey unless he had faith. Does that make sense? Okay. But within the faith, which is his heart, there has to be some experiences that confuse him, that blind him from his true faith, which is like, why am I in exile, in isolation, and poor? If I'm truly worthy of God, why did God have this faith for me? Okay, so he's going on this journey because he has faith. And this journey is meant to remove all the doubts and the fears from him.

Okay. So is that what you're saying?

Yeah. Okay. So Paul says faith is the evidence of things unseen. Okay. So to put this in very simple terms. Okay. There are things that exist in this world that you can never prove to exist. If you try to do so by science, by measuring it, you get nowhere. Okay? You'll never prove God exists. You will never prove conscious exists. But if you are to truly experience the world, if you're trying to make sense of the world, then you have to assume certain things about the world through your faith.

We have had the particle accelerator Technology.

I'm talking about physics

It has allowed us to have insight into the particular things that make up What you are citing is basically just news articles.

You are not a scientist. You cannot make that, you know, even that comment, you know, what scientific findings, breakthroughs, what are not, you cannot make that judgment.

Look, look, look, look, you talk to any physicist and he'll tell you the last major breakthrough was quantum mechanics, quantum physics. Okay, after that we've had things like string theory, that's like, okay, but it's not a major breakthrough.

Maybe we should talk to a physicist. Okay, then go, guys, go home, do the homework. Okay, tell me in the past 70 years what major theory in physics have we had.

No, professor, you're making an extraordinary claim. So the burden of proof is upon you.

No, no, no, I'm telling you what I've read, like, online. I'm telling you what my own research

Your own Well, I was a physicist, I was a physicist from the age of eight, and I've studied also physics, you know, until college.

My intuitive understanding is, I agree with Professor Jiang that the so-called breakthroughs in the last 70 years or 50 years are just, you know, basically just speculation. So I... but I cannot say that I'm really on the same level as the top scientists in the world. Of course, I'm just, you know, an amateur, but I think you have to do your homework before you make any comment.

And just Yeah.

And just look at neuroscience, like the people living Can you hear me?

Yeah. Like people dating back to maybe 5,000 years ago or maybe even before that, people who live in the Amazon forest, they've since then already started using psychedelics like ayahuasca, but now we still have yet to figure out how it works. I mean, we know the theories, like the synapses, the receptors, but how they form all those kinds of, how they have all those experiences, we don't know. We've been having that medicine for thousands of years Okay, and also, like, we don't even know how they came up with ayahuasca, right?

Because ayahuasca is a blending of two plants, there's like a million plants you could blend together, right? How do they know that these two particular plants together in a certain quantity would induce the psychedelic experience? That's pretty amazing to think about, right? If it's just random, it would take a million years to figure this out. How did they do that? How are they able to figure out I will Without one another, the actually the psychoactive herb can only last for like 10 minutes, 20 minutes, but with the other herb, among millions of herbs, they combine, they create this ayahuasca that can actually give you a full experience rather than just 10 minutes of tripping.

So there's no way it could have been random, right? There's no way it could have been random. It was not like, okay, you know what, let's try a million plants and see which two work out, right? They could have been random

We've heard about the story of, right, how you even translate that, the guy who tried Yeah, yeah, who tasted, this guy in ancient China who tasted, like, thousands of herbs and even got poisoned a few times and he wrote a book about all those herbs.

I mean, that could be not true but I mean Okay, look, look, look, look, okay, I'm telling you no one knows how they came up with this.

Okay, it is one of the most powerful psychedelics in the world and it's safe and it gives you this transcendental experience and as you point out it requires two plants, it requires two herbs in a certain quantity together. Okay, and like, how do they figure this out because there are, like, millions of these herbs in the Amazon, right? Yeah.

I'm saying that I absolutely agree with what you say in the context of Dante. So, back to your stated mission for this class, which is to spread Dante and make people realize how good Dante is. And I'm saying that I agree with your mission. I think it's really great. But if you try to make this super science, if you try to elevate this above science, above common knowledge, then I think it'll be really hard to convince people. You will not be able to achieve your mission.

Okay. Okay. I didn't say Dante was better than science. I said that if you just work with the current paradigms of science, you get into a lot of dead ends, including consciousness, including a lot of things. Okay. All right. Any other comments or questions? Yes.

I do believe what the professor said because Dante is kind of a solution. It is kind of a possible way for us to lead into a new future. So it doesn't mean that Dante just tries to deny philosophy or it can be, Dante is not on top of it, but Dante is kind of a new channel, I think maybe this is a new possibility. Yeah. So, Do you guys remember in canto 2 Dante and Beatrice were talking about the dark spots on the moon and Beatrice said to Dante, "You should do a science experiment," right?

Dante is not... In fact, he loves science. He himself was a scientist. Okay? So, this is not an anti-science thing. But what Dante is saying is that you have to believe certain things about the world if you are truly to seek the truth. And certainly these things are, you know, just things you can't see. You can't ever know.

I want to share something. I really appreciated David pointing out the word argument, whether it's evidence or argument in English, because the verse that captured me was "on that faith the highest hope is founded." So to me this passage is about faith not just as almost like a blind faith, that if you think about what Paul could be saying, faith is just, okay, you don't see it but that's what it is. So have faith in that. But here is where hope is founded. So it's a driving force upon which imagination, things people have action, it's a driving force.

Exactly. Okay. So we'll end with this. Okay. What's the highest hope? What is our highest hope? Exactly. Right. What's the highest hope? You can try to answer.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I'd be curious to hear your answers.

But what is salvation then?

Yo, what is heaven? Return to God, like we've been talking about this morning, which is like God is calling to us and we are calling to God. Okay. That's what the highest hope is, to be able to return to God, which is our salvation and redemption. Okay. Yes, My highest hope is to make every organism, every living being in this universe happy and safe and loved.

And I don't think that has anything to do with returning to this God.

But that's what theologians say is returning to God. Returning to God is, if you return to God by yourself, that's not enough. Everything has to return to God. God has to be made whole, right? God split himself up into the world and now everything has to return to God for the world to be whole again. Okay. And that will be the highest happiness, the highest hope.

And my point is we can't just look inwards and be like, I'll meditate all day and this will be good. We have to do works, do good works.

No one is saying meditate all day. Dante is saying you have to, like, learn, you have to debate, you have to inquire, you have to experiment, right? That's what Dante is saying here. My question is, has Dante done any good works, like Dante the fictional pilgrim, has he done any good works as the result of his experiences?

I don't understand the question.

What I'm saying is, after he got enlightenment, so he realized that his highest mission is to return to God and to make God whole, right? By making everyone around him return to God. So what has he done towards this goal? I'm talking about Dante the fictional character, not the author.

When we get there, we'll know. We'll know what he did.

Okay. Yes.

Clarification on faith. Can I interpret it as just fully committing to a hypothesis? Like in Dante's terms, fully committing to the hypothesis that fully committing to the Well, if you change the hypothesis of faith, yes.

Committing to your faith. Committing to your hypothesis that God

No, because a hypothesis can be proven Oh, that's true.

That's true.

Faith is the assumption, the thing from which everything must come, right? In order to achieve the highest hope, you need to have faith. Yes. I think that the true value of this class is not only about Dante but also about God because people right now they don't believe in God. Most of them believe in money, the power, the science, the AI. So which means that we lost our faith, we lost our hope, we lost our love. But if Dante really, you know, can really recall people's memory, maybe people can on the one hand develop their science, no problem.