Dante #4: Paradise Cantos 24-29

So, in Canto 24, line 83, he added, "Now this coin is well examined, and now we know its alloy and its weight. But tell me, do you have it in your purse?" And the reason why I have a question about this is that in Christianity, and especially in Catholicism, it's said that money is the root of all evil. So, why would Dante in heaven talking about faith compare his faith to a coin and his self to a purse?

Okay. So, you're jumping ahead. We actually have not come to this section yet, okay? So, that's something we will do today. So, could you please wait until we get to this section, okay? Thank you. Any other questions? Yes.

So, in Canto 11, that's the one where in line five he says, "one was set on the priesthood," and in line eight it said "one labored tangled in the delights of flesh." So, that's Canto 11, lines five and eight. He seems to be doing almost like a talking about the bad qualities between the mind, body, and spirit, it seems like. And so it seems to me that he's like calling out the Catholic Church perhaps as, like, tangled in the delights of flesh. Would the delights of flesh be sex?

Yeah, and what is your So it seems like he's calling out one after the other.

Like he calls out in line four, like, "one meant to plunder, one to politic, one labored tangled in the delights of flesh, one was fully bent on indolence." And so I got this as, like, all the ways you could corrupt the mind with the sophists, like, I'm going to sell you knowledge, but knowledge is free, we can just pick up a book. The second is the body, I can sell the body and that would be prostitution. But then the other would be the spirit, the selling of salvation.

Throughout the Divine Comedy, he will refer to the idea of indulgences. Okay, the idea of indulgences is, okay, let's just say you're a really bad person. And you are filthy rich. And you're like, okay, I'm going to die now, and I know I'm going to hell, but is there a loophole? And the Catholic Church says, yes, it's called indulgences, where if you pay a certain fine or contribution or donation to the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church will reduce your penance in purgatory. So this is a very common practice at this time.

And for 40 years, you, Moses, have been wandering and the Jews have been wandering around in the desert. And at the end of 40 years, God comes to you in a vision and says, "Moses, you've sacrificed everything to free your people from captivity.

Are you getting there because one hopes introspectively, and so you have the I and the ego? I can't hope for you. Like, even if I'm hoping for you, I'm the one that's hoping. And so, are you saying it's arrogance because it's Okay.

So, again, let's go back to the image of Dante alone in his room, writing the Divine Comedy by himself, while in exile and isolation, right? There is no evidence that the Divine Comedy will become the greatest work of literature in human history. There's absolutely no evidence at all. And if you were humble, he'd be like, "You know what? The chances are whatever I write will have made an impact on the people around me, but it won't really change the world for the better." In which case, if that humility, he'd just be like, "I give up because it's not really worth my..." Right?

How would you say this is different from his ego?

Excuse me?

How would you say this Yeah, that's a great question.

Okay.

Hope is Right.

Because what he's doing is he's trying to change the world. Do you understand? So, it's an act of... he's gifting himself to the world. He's saying like, "My last year or two years, it is not to enjoy myself. It is not to go around, have dinners, where all these dukes, these princes are praising my poetry." Because he could do that, right? He could be like, "You know what? I've written the Inferno, I've written the Purgatorio. It's fantastic, and I'm getting all these patrons, and they all want... because they all want to be in my poetry.

So, something I would like to ask is that when Dante was doing all of this, when he was doing this selfless sacrifice, was he doing it with the expectation that it will come to That's what hope is, yes.

So, if he is doing it with the expectation that it's all coming to fruition, then isn't he being a little heretical, because he is expecting God to do something for him?

Yes, like as I will show you in the next two cantos, the Divine Comedy is pure heresy, okay? If you are a Catholic priest and you are able to read the Divine Comedy in the year 1321, you'd be very, very angry. All right? But again, there's nothing you can do about it because you understand in your heart that all art comes from God as the source. Okay? So, there is both anger at Dante, but there's also deep fear and respect towards Dante. Yes?

Out of curiosity, how do you think they would have rationalized that at the time, seeing that there's this work that criticizes the Catholic Church, but that it's God's will to criticize the Catholic Church?

Right. So, that's a great question. In psychology, there's a phrase called cognitive dissonance. Right? So, you read the Divine Comedy and you're a Catholic priest and you're like, "Oh, he's praising God. He's praising the church, the bride of God, right?" So, this is cognitive dissonance. That's why Dante is so powerful because only if you truly understand him, can you truly appreciate what he's doing. Okay? Because remember where we are. Dante has now studied everything he got from Beatrice and now he's being tested by Peter, James, and John, the three apostles, right?

I'm not talking about his heresy in the eyes of the Catholic Church. I'm talking about his heresy in the eyes of his own construction of his own belief of God. So, according to his definition, God is ineffable. You cannot expect him to do something and he will do it. However, right here he is expecting God to reward him for his effort.

Okay. So, we've been learning about Dante for the past 4 days and it's pretty obvious to me from this comment that you made that you don't really understand what's being taught here. What Dante is really trying to... God is all-loving, all-forgiving.

Like, were there any works that they published or, like, speeches that they made since Yes.

Okay, so some historical context. Why Dante is able to do what he's doing is because the world is in turmoil. Because the Catholic Church is split. There are in fact two centers of the Catholic Church, okay? There's one that is in Rome, but there's also another in Avignon, because the Holy Roman Emperor has appointed another church, okay? So another pope. So, the thing that turned up in the Catholic Church is they are at war with each other. It's an internal civil war in the Catholic Church. There are different factions and that's why Dante is able to do what he's doing, because there's no central authority in place.

They were too busy fighting each other.

They were too busy fighting each other, exactly. Okay? All right? All right. So, thank you, okay. All right. So, we have a lot to do today, okay? So, let's get started, okay? All right. So, remember where we are? Where Dante is being interrogated by Peter on what faith is. And Dante will first respond with Paul's formulation, which is that faith is evidence of things unseen, meaning only faith can prove that certain things exist, like God. You cannot through science ever prove that God exists. Okay? But then, what he will say that's different from Paul is that Paul is basically saying there are things that exist beyond our imagination.

"Canto 24, verse 79. And then I heard, 'If all one learns below as doctrine were so understood, there would be no place for sophist's...' This speech was breathed from that enkindled love. He added, 'Now, this coin is well examined, and now we know its alloy and its weight. But tell me, do you have it in your purse?' And I, 'Indeed I do. So bright and round that nothing in its stamp leads me to doubt.' Next, from the deep light gleaming there, I heard, 'What is the origin of the dear gem that comes to you?'" Okay, stop.

Okay, all right. So, this is a very interesting question, like, okay, if the Catholic Church is against money, why is Dante referring to faith as a coin? Right? It's a coin. What's going on here?

Could it be the indulgences that we're selling? Like the indulgences you mentioned before, so.

Oh, indulgences are evil, right?

Indulgences are like against everything that Jesus had.

Faith is a coin because you pay your way into, like, believing or doing good things, maybe.

Oh, no, no. Okay, anyone else?

Yeah, I don't know. I just try to guess. Maybe because coin stands for money and for fortune because during that period, the church just tried to ask people to pay the money to redeem their stains, so maybe Dante is just saying the coin is something that, you know, the church would have to make use of to try to let people pay for it so that they can redeem their sin to be Okay, why is it paradoxical to say that faith is a coin?

Why is it paradoxical? Yes?

Does it have anything to do with its Okay, can you explain?

I was just thinking cuz the coin usually has two sides and I'm not the most knowledgeable about historical or the religious content, but I was wondering if faith also is a two-sided thing in a way.

Okay. All right. Why is... Okay, let's go on this, okay? There's a paradox, right? Faith is a coin. Why is that a paradox? Yes, and then Well, a coin is something material and faith is like just in the mind.

Exactly. Do you understand? Okay? Faith is air. It's nothing. A coin is material. But not only is it material, what is it? It's also... You understand? If it's in your pocket, it's going to be the most heavy thing in your pocket. Right? So, this metaphor, what it reveals is that faith is the heaviest thing in you. It is the thing that anchors you. Does that make sense? Okay? So, the idea of the coin isn't that it's money. The idea of the coin is that it's a heavy valuable object inside of you.

I just wanted to build off her comment cuz I do think it's interesting because we talk about, let's say, two sides of an argument, but it's a paradox because faith is Yeah.

Okay. All right. Yes?

So, something that I find interesting is a paradox that's not only evident here in the Dubai community, but also in the church as a whole. So, nowadays our coins are made of, like, steel, made of metals that are not so precious, so they don't weigh as much as this coin of faith presumably does. And they specifically asked Dante, like the pilgrim Dante, about the coin's alloy. And since it's heavy, even though it's only a coin, I think it's reasonable to assume that it might be made of gold, a very precious Well, after some time in history, yes, they are made of gold.

Well, what I'm saying is that gold is a very precious metal and the church, well, the church and Dante himself, while simultaneously condemning wealth, they are holding this metaphorical gold coin in their pocket. Why can't they pick another metaphor?

Or pick one then.

Well, I'm thinking maybe they can say like milk and honey, the old metaphor.

Milk and honey? That's not... yeah, yes?

I think this coin is well examined. There's also a verse in the scripture that says that gold will go through fire and faith is like the gold that can withstand the test of fire. I think maybe this is one of the reasons Yes, exactly.

Thank you. Yes, yes. That's right. Okay. Okay. All right. Thank you for that. Yes. So, that's why it's important to read the footnotes. Okay. Yes. Can we keep on reading, "Verse 90.

'What is the origin of the dear gem that comes to you?' The gem on which all virtues are founded.' I: 'The Holy Ghost's abundant rain poured upon the parchments old and new. That is the syllogism that has proved it with such acuteness that faith has truth. When set beside that argument, all other demonstrations seem to me obtuse.'" Okay.

So, Peter asked him a question, which is like, faith is inside of you, but where does it come from? How do you have faith? What proves that God must exist? And what is his... Right, right, but I'm saying, like, how, what in your life proves that the Holy Spirit must exist?

Holy Ghost abundant rain.

Excuse me?

The Holy Ghost abundant rain poured upon What's the rain doing?

Yeah, you go ahead first.

So basically he's saying that the Holy Ghost abundant rain poured upon parchments old and new, and here abundant rain is water. Abundant rain is ink, and he is trying to say that the Holy Ghost has inspired so many writings on parchment old and new.

What is a parchment old and new?

New and Old Testament Yes, yes, and the Bible.

If God didn't, how could you have a Bible, which is this brilliant work of literature, right? Who's giving hope and inspiration to millions around the world and it's persisted for thousands of years. So, the Bible itself is proof that God must exist. If you read the Bible, especially Genesis, it is beautiful. It's one of the greatest works of literature in history, right? And it is the Holy Ghost that infuses himself, right? Like rain, it's a metaphor, throughout the Holy Bible. So, the people who wrote the Bible, they were being possessed by the Holy Ghost.

"Verse 97. 'I heard the premises of old and new impelling your conclusion. Why do you hold these to be the speech of God?'" Okay, so it's like how do you know it's truly the work of God, that these people are speaking for God.

Keep on going.

"And I: 'The proof revealing truth to me relies on acts that happened. For such miracles, nature can heat no iron, beat no anvil.' 'Say, who assures you that those works were real?' Came the reply. 'The very thing that needs proof, no thing else attests these works to you.' I said, 'If without miracles the world was turned to Christianity, that is so great a miracle that all the rest are not its hundredth part. For you were poor and hungry when you found the field and so sowed the good plant. Once a vine and now a thorn.'" Okay.

So, again, what's happening is that Peter continues to interrogate and says, "How do you know for a fact that the Bible is the word of..." And what Dante says is, "Well, in real life there's evidence." What's the evidence? Yes, sir?

The Bible.

What? But how do you know the Bible is the word of God? Yes?

Especially saying all these physical things like parting the Red Sea and stuff actually happened.

No, that's what he's saying. Yes?

The fact that

The whole world has turned to Exactly.

Can you please explain to me how this happened? 2 billion people in the world are Christians, okay? Now, I don't mean to insult Christians, but when I was growing up in Canada, everyone around me was a Christian and they were telling me about how Jesus crucified himself on the cross. And how God came to redeem us from our sins and, like, I was like, "This makes no logical sense, guys, okay? Do you even know what you're talking about?" Okay? For, like, decades of my life, even when I was at Yale, which was founded as a Christian... I had no idea what was going on, okay?

And by the way, I want to add that I don't feel insulted as a Christian.

Okay, right.

Because I think the dialectics is also part of the journey.

Right, right. Yeah. Yes?

I think this is actually super great. Like, I think that he's being really smart here. This is a really great argument of his, but I'm not sure what he is trying to prove here. Like his audience are all people who speak, like, Italian, right? Audience are people who speak Italian, who speak Latin, who can read. And these people are going to be educated people in Europe. And these people are going to be Christian already. So why is he proving their own faith to them?

Maybe you are it's communicated.

Yeah, maybe the Satan has taken control of you, right? Maybe you're speaking for Satan. That's literally what they would say to you. Right? And what Dante is saying is like, "No, guys, let's not do that. Let's actually try to logically use our imagination, figure this out, because we can do that." Right? You see the difference? It's night and day. You go to a priest, you ask a question, "Satan is in you." Like, don't... That's literally what would... Right? And now it's like, "No, of course you should ask a question.

Yeah, so I'm still a little confused. If faith is belief without evidence and the Bible is evidence, then how does everything work out? So, what Dante is saying is this, okay? You have to make certain assumptions about the world for your imagination to take root, okay? For you to reason things out. If you're always like, "Let's prove God or let's prove that God has intention," okay? If you just try to figure out these fundamental principles, you don't get anywhere. You can go back and forth. Okay? But what I'm saying is like, let's just assume these things to be true.

And because I know the Bible can divide into two parts. The first part, Old Testament, and then the other, New Testament. So, some people believe in God, some people believe in Jesus. So, I feel a little bit confused, what about Dante? Do you think Dante just believes in Jesus or believes in the God or Okay.

So, this is a question, okay? So, if you actually read the Bible, it's a complete mess. It's written by, like, I don't know, like 100 different people. There are many... And so, what Dante is saying is like, "Don't read the Bible literally, guys. Just read the Bible and see it as a portal into the mind of God. And what allows you to enter this portal is your imagination." Yes?

Well, at the time, most people didn't even read the Bible because it wasn't Latin. So, like, that was at this time, it wasn't translated yet.

Exactly. Thank you. Yes, okay. At this time in history, it would be an act of sin to read the Bible by yourself. Okay? Because that would only confuse you because Satan could come into your ear and say, "Oh, you see, blah blah blah." Okay? So, that's why you weren't allowed to read the Bible. So, at this time they didn't really look at the contradictions in the Bible. Yes?

So, Dante here, he is saying a lot of things. He is saying, first, he is comparing faith to a coin. Second, he's using Saint Peter to criticize the church that he founded. And third, he is saying, "Don't read the Bible too literally." So, when all these three things come together, they remind me a lot of Protestantism. So, is Dante influenced by various heretical movements, or has he inspired these movements, or is it both?

Okay, we'll never know, but my argument in this class is that he inspired everything, okay? Not just the Protestant Reformation, but also time of revolution, the Renaissance, Enlightenment, modernity itself. Okay? So, I mean, guys, this is great, but let's keep on moving on, okay?

"Thus done, the high and holy court resounded throughout its spheres with 'Te Deum laudamus,' sung with the melody they use on high. Then he who had examined me, that baron who led me on from branch to branch, so that we now were drawing close to the last leaves, began again: 'That grace which lovingly directs your mind until this point has taught you how to find the seemly words for thought, so that I do approve what you brought forth, but now you must declare what you believe and what gave you the faith that you received.'

What do you believe about God, okay? And what Dante says is like, I believe that God is love. Why is this a problem? This is what he's been saying throughout the Divine Comedy, right? God is love. Why would this be a problem? Yes?

To me, I think he's making No, no, not to you.

I'm saying historically, would this be a problem?

I'm saying that he's assuming about the nature of God. God has frequently been shown to be not that loving. For example, the ark and Noah and Jonah No, no, no.

I'm saying for the Catholic Church, why is this heresy to say God is love? It's heresy. Why?

The Catholic Church hates some people No, no, yes.

Well, for the Catholic Church, Jesus is... No, no, no. At this time in history, what are Catholics taught? God is not love, what is God?

Stern father figure who punishes you if you do bad things.

No. Like, what is the official definition of God at this time in history by the Catholic Church? No, no, no, no, no. What is God? Like, have you guys not Yes, it's Trinity.

Do you understand? Okay? This is heresy. You can't say God is love. You have to say that God is the Father, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus. They are separate and equal and one, okay? That is what you must say. It's called the Nicene Creed. To diverge from the Nicene Creed is heresy. Okay? Can we drop the Nicene Creed, okay? You're not allowed to make adjustments to it. You're not allowed to question it. You must recite it, okay? So, when Peter asked him, "What do you believe?" he should have recited the Nicene Creed.

So, the contention is on uno dio, one God. That's what's heretical?

No, no, no, you know, he's saying God is God is love.

Right. You can't do that.

Not one God versus Okay, okay, okay.

Let's read the Nicene Creed, okay? This is what all Catholics must believe. Not one word can be different. Yes?

"I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father, through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became man. For our sake, he was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

So, yeah, this is the modern version, okay? Sorry. Yeah, don't worry about it. But the old version is the Trinity, okay? So, this is a problem. Dante got this wrong. But then what he does is he makes a subtle adjustment, okay? You can continue.

"Verse 139. And I believe in three eternal persons, and these I do believe to be one essence, so single and threefold as to allow both 'is' and 'are.' Of this profound condition of God that I have touched on, Gospel teaching has often set the imprint on my mind. This is the origin. This is the spark then that extends into a vivid flame and, like a star in heaven, glows in me."

Okay, so now what Dante is like, "Oh, you know what? It's the Holy Trinity, okay?" So, this is a paradox. God is love, but I also believe in the Holy Trinity. Okay? And this is why Dante is such a genius because given this impossible situation, like you must declare faith in the Holy Trinity, he figures out a way to get out of it and say that God is love, okay? So, I'm going to go over the Holy Trinity. It's very important. All right? So, at this time in history I don't know.

And you're like, "Okay, I understood Modalism, I understood Partialism, I understood Arianism. I don't understand the Holy Trinity. It makes no logical..." So, here's the question. Why would the Catholic Church insist the Holy Trinity to be the official doctrine? In fact, they created something called the Nicene Creed to enforce this on every single Christian. If you did not obey, they would come and kill you. Okay, that's literally what... So, why? Yes?

Because they wanted to be special and to prosecute people.

Okay. What's the logic? Because the entire scripture concluded or leads to this conclusion, which it's hard to explain logically, but if the Holy Trinity is not true, then the whole Bible description of God cannot... yeah.

Okay, all right. So the word is mystery, okay? What the Holy Trinity does is create the idea of mystery, which is like God is not knowable. You must use faith to accept God. You understand? That's the reason. The idea of mystery. Yes?

It's a litmus test, right? With the mystery, it's a litmus test. Are you in my group or...

Yes, okay. It's a test of faith. The thing creates something that you cannot logically explain. The Holy Trinity is something that you cannot figure out mentally, okay? It makes no sense, but you must accept it, okay? It creates faith, it creates mystery, and mystery is the foundation of the Catholic Church, right? That's why there has to be a Catholic Church, because otherwise you could just figure out the word by yourself. You could just go talk to God by yourself. But because of mystery, the Catholic Church must be the shepherd to lead the flock to God.

He said both "is" and "are," I guess. So he kind of admits it. In his verse 142.

Okay. Let's look at 139 and 140, okay? I believe in three eternal persons, the Holy Trinity, and these I believe to be of one essence. What is it, one essence?

Love. Do you understand? Okay, he's like, "Listen, we can reduce this Holy Trinity even further, right?" Jesus is love. Holy Spirit is love. God is love. Okay? This is why Dante is such a genius, because he takes an impossible situation, right? Holy Trinity. It's meant to create mystery, and he solves the mystery for you. The essence of everything is love.

So, what is Dante's stance on ineffability? As in the idea that you cannot predict, you cannot control, you cannot predict what God will do. You cannot predict God's nature. What is his stance on this?

No. He's clearly against this, right? He clearly believes that you have to have a connection to God. That's where your intuition and imagination come from. All right? Okay. Does it make sense to you guys what he's doing here? Okay? This is heresy. If the Catholic Church actually understood what Dante was doing, they'd burn him at the stake. But he uses their language. He makes subtle changes.

So, by defining God as love, is he setting certain guidelines and constraints for God's behavior and motives and personality? What he's saying is that God is perfect. And so God loves you unconditionally. There's nothing you can do to anger him. There's nothing you can do to make him hate you. He will love you. Yeah, yes?

I just have one question about, if Protestantism is directed from Dante, then why did they also take in the Holy Spirit? Because Protestants still believe in the Holy Spirit, right? So why, even though Dante just says God is love, why do they still believe in the Holy Spirit?

But they were still inspired by Dante, you see? But they didn't know they were inspired by Dante. Right? Influence is something you don't really see. You can logically... yes? Did you have a...

Protestantism is more like a rebellion against the political institution of the Catholic Church. It's not about the theology of the Catholic Church. Well, some part of the theology, but the Trinity part is intact. So Martin Luther was okay with the Trinity.

All right, so the idea behind Protestantism, okay, there's like 10,000 different groups, right? But the idea is you have a direct connection to God from the Bible. That's the main idea. Whereas the Catholic Church is like, "No, you have to go through us. You can't read the Bible by yourself because Satan is in you. He'll just screw you up." All right. Yes?

So I was wondering if Dante tried to open a new channel to all the people, because people do not need to just buy Bible, but can buy love, because if love is Jesus is God, maybe they all have love, so love can be another channel, not only the...

Love is what allows you to connect directly to God. Peter?

We have first comments online. So the interesting part about the concept of God is that if all things come from God and nothing exists but through the Father, then God is both love and hate simultaneously.

That's an interesting comment, okay? So the conception of God is that God is both and infinite. Okay, does that make sense? So God is a source of everything and God encompasses everything. So God is both and the source. Both being and becoming. Okay? So everything is encompassed in God. And what is important for us is that this is also a paradox, right? How are you both being and becoming? And the way we resolve this paradox is to say that humans are part of God itself, right?

I think my simple question on this is, if God loves us so much, why did he create hate in the first place?

Do you... Yes.

So I heard, I don't know if the source is true, but Einstein used to answer this question: heat is a thing that physically exists, fire is a thing that exists, but cold is not. It's the lack of heat. So God is the fire or the light, it just goes back to chapter 101 that, you know, he's light, but the lack of him is darkness. But darkness is not a substantial thing, right? Light is particle, is ray, but darkness is not. And so hate is the absence of love, but it's not a thing that exists by its own.

Okay. All right, so let's continue, okay? But this answer will be answered to you later on, okay? Because we will eventually move closer to God, where the angels are. And the angels aren't capable of hatred. They're incapable of turning away from God. And the angels are perfect, and when we get to that section, you will understand why hate is necessary. Okay? All right, so let's continue. Continue please.

Verse 148. Just as the Lord who listens to his servant's announcements, then as soon as he's silent, embraces him, both glad with the good news, so did the apostolic light at whose command I had replied, while blessing me and singing, then encircled me three times. The speech I spoke had brought him such delight.

Okay, so do you understand? Okay, so he's passed the first test. What is faith? He's answered faith. Now the second test is hope. And this will be asked by James, okay, the apostle. Okay, so let's go to 25, please.

Canto 25. If it should happen, if this sacred poem, this work so shared by heaven and by earth that it has made me lean through these long years, can never overcome the cruelty that bars me from the fair fold where I slept, a lamb opposed to wolves that war on it, by then with other voice, with other fleece, I shall return as poet and put on in my baptismal font the laurel.

Okay, all right, so again, we have to remember the image of Dante alone in exile and isolation writing the Divine Comedy. And what his hope is is to return to Florence one day, right? And then have the Florentines crown him as the greatest poet ever. It won't happen, but that is his hope. That is his arrogance.

Like, I mean, yeah, afterwards they built a statue for him and they accepted him as an honorary man or like the most important man from Florence or...

This is that you have manifestation, right? Where you have absolutely no evidence this is going to be true, but you visualize it so much and God will hear your prayer. So, after he died, first of all, he was not allowed to be buried within Florence with his ancestors.

This is my question. If he visualized, if he tried to materialize this wonderful future for himself returning to Florence as poet laureate, then why didn't God grant it to him? Like, if there's a will, there's a way, right?

But God did. Go to Florence, man. Go to Florence. He's buried beside...

While he was alive, I mean.

Why does God have to grant you this thing when you're alive? What matters? Your body or soul? We're starting today. Dante is staring at us from where he is and smiling at what we're doing. Right? Isn't that... I mean, who cares, during his lifetime he didn't get the reward. If you go to Florence, he is...

I would just like to add to that. I think that when we're reading the previous cantos, we did touch upon a point that God will hear what you want, but it might not always manifest the way you want it to be, but it's going to return to you in, you know, a special way. So I think that even though Dante wasn't able to physically go back while he was alive, his reputation and his aspirations to be crowned as the greatest poet did happen.

And also, if you're Moses and you've led your people for 40 years across the desert, you freed them from the pharaoh, and then you go to Jerusalem and they call you king, would they remember you today? Would you be the greatest prophet in Jewish history? Would you be Moses of today? Probably not, right? If you were Jesus and you were put on trial by the Pharisees and the Pharisees were like, "Oops, we'll let you go and we won't crucify you." Prophets have to be persecuted.

So I'm really confused as to what he is encouraging here. So he is saying, "Oh, okay, I am persecuted when I'm alive, but I will get rewards when I die." And he's also saying, "Okay, you guys persecute me while I'm alive, so you guys will burn in hell once you die." So what he is saying is that he's delaying the consequences of these horrible actions of what happened to him to the afterlife so that he wouldn't have to act against them while he is alive.

Okay. What he's saying, okay, it's very clear, okay? Do not plan on rewards. Do not think of the end result. Just act and hope. Just do that. Okay? Don't worry about anything else. You can have these dreams. God may or may not grant you your dreams. It doesn't matter. What matters is you live a life of faith, hope, and love, and that is the most meaningful, purposeful, and happy life you could possibly live. Okay? Do not ever try to say, "If I do this, then I will, you know, get in Yale and be a lawyer and be a millionaire and..." Okay?

Well, but he did say that he did think of the end, because he said, you know, he shall return as a...

That is his hope, but he has absolutely no evidence that this is going to work out. But he... Yeah, okay.

Okay? So you're right in that, you know, it is believed that if you truly live a life of faith, hope, and love, things will work out. Okay? And the greater your commitment to faith, love, and hope, the more likely God is to reward you.

But just not in this world.

Maybe not in this world.

All right? And that's just unfortunate. All right, yes?

It seems like a really passive way to act for me. Like somehow it is...

That this is passive?

Yes, this is passive because...

To live every life, to live every single day, to live every single moment with faith, love, and...

Yes, yes, you keep...

And hope. That's passive?

You keep saying these words, but these words do not get you to your goal. You can live with faith, love, and hope, then that is great for your spiritual health. However, it will not get you back into Florence.

The guy is working his ass off every single day.

And he's working not towards getting himself back into Florence. He's working towards his faith, hope, and love.

Right. And that's what he should be...

Okay, then I guess he should make peace with the fact that he's not in Florence.

Well, he's definitely made peace because he's written the Divine Comedy, okay? Yes?

I also feel confused because if faith, hope, love is what Dante believed in, then it would be contradictory, because you said you don't need to be rewarded, but actually if you really believe in love, believe in God, and God will reward you with the faith, hope, and love, then this is a reward. So, you know what I mean?

Right, right, but what we're trying to distinguish between is material reward and spiritual reward, okay? Material reward is something you can see, something you can touch. Spiritual reward is something that you have to have faith in.

Oh, yeah.

Okay? All right. Okay, let's continue.

Verse 10. For there I first found entry to that faith which makes souls welcome unto God. And then for that faith Peter garlanded my brow. Then did a light move toward us from that sphere from which emerged the first, the dear, the rare of those whom Christ had left to be his vicars. And full of happiness my lady said to me, "Look, look and see the baron whom below on earth they visit in Galicia. As when a dove alights near its companion and each unto the other murmuring and circling offers its affection, so did I see both those great and glorious princes give greeting to each other praising the banquet that is offered them on high.

Okay. Okay, stop. Okay, all right. So this is James and he's going to Dante, right? And the first thing that James says to Dante is, "You're special. You were picked by God to come to heaven before your death and you have a body." Okay? So you're still a human. You're not a spirit. So you've been picked out, all right? So I'm going to ask you three questions now. Tell me, what is hope?

So, did the second flame continue? Verse 49. And she, compassionate, who was the guide who led my feathered wings to such high flight, did thus anticipate my own reply. "There's no child of the church militant who has more hope than he has, as is written within the sun whose rays reach all our ranks. Thus, it is granted him to come from Egypt into Jerusalem that he have vision of it before his term of warring ends. The other two points of your question, which were not asked so that you may know, but that he may report how much you prize this virtue, I leave to him.

Okay, stop. Okay, all right. Okay. This is just the arrogance of Dante, okay? Beatrice comes in and tells James and the entire heavens, and Beatrice is perfect, right? So, I think she says must be true. She says, "There is no greater Christian than Dante." Okay? "There is no greater Christian than..." And he, like Moses, has journeyed from Egypt into Jerusalem. He came from exile into the promised... And what is his hope? His hope is to, of course, write The Divine Comedy. It doesn't make sense, guys.

Verse 59 to 60. "But that he may report how much you prize this virtue, I leave to him. He will not find them hard or cause for arrogance, as you have asked. Let him reply, and God's grace help his task." As a disciple answering his master, prepared and willing in what he knows well, that his proficiency may be revealed, I said, "Hope is the certain expectation of future glory. It is the result of God's grace and of merit we have earned."

Okay, stop. Why would this be heretical, this idea of hope? Hope is the expectation of future glory. It is the result of God's grace and of merit we have earned. Why would this, at this time in history, be controversial? It's certainly not controversial to us, but it was controversial back then. Why?

Well, because hope couldn't really exist. Or, because the Catholic Church was the one who issued who went to heaven or not, and they did that by how good of the work you did. And so there wasn't, I mean, I guess there was some hope, but you didn't have any sayings.

Exactly, okay? That your merit doesn't matter. It's God's grace that matters. That's why humility is important, right? Be humble before God, because anything you do doesn't matter. It's God's grace that matters. Right? And now what Dante is saying is, no, merit does matter, okay? So it's an act of arrogance. Be arrogant. Don't be... And again, it is very subtle, but that's what he's saying here. If you truly want to ascend to heaven, if you truly want to achieve what you want, you need God's grace, but you also need to have talent.

Verse 70. This light has come to me from many stars, but he who first instilled it in my heart was the chief singer of the sovereign guide.

Do you guys know who the chief singer of the sovereign guide is? King David, right? Okay? King David. And why is King David important in the Bible? Do you guys know the old Bible? What... Yes?

Because he was the man after God's own...

Exactly. He is the person that God loves the most. There is no other person that God loves as much as David. Okay, it's explicit in the Bible. All right, keep on going.

73. "May those, he says within his deity, who know your name put hope in you." And if one has my faith, can he not know God's name? And just as he instilled, you then instilled with your epistle, so that I am full and rain again your rain on other souls. While I was speaking in the living heart of that soul flame, there came a trembling flash, sudden, repeated, just as lightning cracks. Then it breathed forth the love with which I still burn for the virtue that was mine until the palm and my departure from the field would have me breathe again to you who take such joy and hope, and I should welcome words that tell what hope has promised unto me, unto... And I, the new and ancient scriptures, set the mark for souls whom God... Friends, for me that mark means what is promised us by hope.

Okay, so Isaiah is a prophet who was persecuted. And what Isaiah says is that all prophets will be persecuted, okay? All right, keep on going.

Verse 103. And as a happy maiden rises and enters the dance to honor the new bride, and not through vanity or other failing, so did I see that splendor brightening approach those two flames dancing in a ring to music suited to their burning love. And there it joined the singing and the circling on which my lady kept her eyes intent, just like a bride, silent and motionless. "This soul is he who lay upon the breast of Christ our pelican, and he was asked from on the cross to serve in the great task."

So again, Beatrice intervenes on Dante's behalf and says, "This soul, he has been asked from the cross to serve in the great task," okay? So not only is Dante being compared to Moses and David, he's also being compared to Jesus, okay? This is just pure arrogance on his part. But it's again his arrogance that will drive him to greatness. Keep on going.

Verse 124. "On earth my body now is earth and shall be together with the rest until our number equals the eternal purpose. Only those two lights that ascended wear their double garment in this blessed cloister, and carry this report back to your world."

Okay. All right. So the reference is this. There's a theory among theologians that James was able to ascend to heaven in his body, okay? And what James is saying is like, "No, that's incorrect. Only two individuals in history have been able to ascend to heaven with their bodies and that is Jesus and Mary." Can someone tell me what the idea here is? Why is it important to be able to ascend to heaven with your body? Yes?

To ascend to heaven with your body means that you're not quite dead by the time you ascend to heaven. It also means that you're so good that all the base things in your body, like your base desires, your base matter, can be elevated and can be brought into heaven as it is.

Right. Okay. And also judgement day.

On judgement day, all our bodies will return to us, okay? All right. So, in other words, they've already been judged and they've been... Again, this is such an arrogant statement. Why is this arrogant? Dante is also able to ascend to heaven in his body, okay? Right? Think of the arrogance of this.

Verse 130. When he began to speak, the flaming circle had stopped its dance. So, too, its song had ceased, that gentle mingling of their threefold breath, even as when, avoiding danger or simply to rest, the oars that strike the water together halt when rowers hear a... how disturbed I was within my mind when I turned around to look at Beatrice, and finding that I could not see, though I was close to her and in the world of gladness.

Okay, okay. So again, this idea of hope. And so what most people believe is that we as humans should strive to be egoless, right? To defeat our ego and learn humility. And that's what will allow for the grace of God. What Dante is saying is, "No. What we must do is turn our ego for good. To be arrogant in a way, I should believe that we can change the world for the better, and we can make it happen." Okay? Do you see the difference? This is arrogant, but it is a selfless arrogance driven by the ego.

Do you think this kind of mindset is also in those big tech CEOs and politicians' minds, that they actually are doing something, that they turn their ego into some big selfless act that changes the world for the better?

Right, you're absolutely right, you know, because everyone believes this, right? So what's the difference between them and Dante? Okay, well, the answer is hope, and love.

So you mean politicians, the tech CEOs, they don't have this faith, hope, and love, or why are they doing good things?

Dante is coming from a very spiritual perspective, just like Confucius or Buddha is. So he's like, "I don't want worldly earthly reward or fame or anything." Well, maybe a bit of fame later on after he died, but most of it, it's like spiritual accomplishments. But for our politicians or entrepreneurs, they still get, you know, stock market shares as a return. So it's a bit different.

Okay. So the major difference is are you turning towards God or are you turning away from God? Okay? And the key variable is love. And what is love? Love is your connection to others. Right? So are you making others more capable of love? Or are you taking away people's capacity to love?

I have an unrelated question, but in the last sentence, the word gladness, I think that it actually appears in many cantos, but we haven't really delved into Dante's definition of this. So...

Just pure happiness or is it like fulfillment or like...

Happiness is your connection to God.

Right. The closer your connection to God, the more glad you are.

But does it also have maybe fulfillment or serenity in the word?

All right. So this is a really good question, okay? So gladness is happiness. Happiness comes from your connection to God. And what's really important, okay? And this ties back to your question, is the more you're able to help others connect to God, the more happiness is created in this world. Do you understand? So your mission is to help others connect to God. That's why the Divine Comedy is a selfless act, because by reading the Divine Comedy, it helps us better connect to... Right? And that's why artificial intelligence is evil, because it's disrupting our connection to God and focusing our attention on the material, right?

So, I don't really get it. So you said that happiness is our connection to God. And that to strengthen our connection to God, we have to create as much happiness as possible in others. So if we're creating this happiness in others, like Dante is, and we're sacrificing ourselves in this life, and we're not happy, then is our connection to God really faint because we're not happy?

Yes.

Your connection to God is not measured by your happiness, it's by your faith or your devotion to God.

And most of the time, if you're really connected to God and doing things for him, he'll give you this internal satisfaction or happiness because you feel like you're on the right path or the right way.

Right. Again, stop focusing on the reward and focus more on the process, right? How should you live your day? And the answer is live every single day with faith, hope, and love, okay? Faith is imagination, right? Use your brain. Use your imagination. Visualize things. Hope is arrogance. Believe you matter, believe you can change the world, and visualize a better world. And then love is your connection to others. Act as to help others. Be kind. Be generous, okay? All right. Okay, let's continue.

Canto 26. While I with blinded eyes was apprehensive from that bright flame which had consumed my vision, there breathed a voice that centered my attention saying, "Until you have retrieved the power of sight which you consumed in me, it would be best to compensate by colloquy. Then do begin, declare the aim on which your soul is set, and be assured of this, your vision, though confounded, is not dead. Because the woman who conducts you through this godly region has within her gaze that force the hand of Ananias..."

Okay, so this is a really important idea where heaven is so bright that Dante's being slowly blinded, right? And if you're being blinded, how can you now see?

Exactly, okay? So now you're forced to use your imagination, okay? You're forced to see with your third eye, okay? Let's keep on going. Did you have a question?

I'm saying that this is also, I think it's really funny, because it's actually also a physical manifestation of blind faith, but I think in the context of Dante it's more about... It's like one of these team exercises where they put a blindfold over your head and then push you backwards and you have to expect not to fall. It's like a trust exercise.

No, I think this is a reference to when Moses went to the mount to get the tabernacle, he was blinded by the sight of God and couldn't see, so that God gave it him like rocks, the 10 Commandments written in stone. And so I think this is a reference...

Yeah, yeah. You're right, yes, okay. Yes. Keep on going.

Verse 13. I said, "As pleases her, may solace sooner or later reach these eyes. Her gaze, when she brought me the fire with which I always burn, the good with which this court is satisfied as alpha and omega of all writings that love has, loud or low, read out to me." It was the very voice that had dispelled the fear I felt at sudden dazzlement that now with further words made me concerned to speak again. He said, "You certainly must sift with a still finer sieve, must tell who led your bow to aim at such a target." And I, by philosophic arguments and by authority whose source is here, that love must be imprinted in me for the good, once it is understood as such and kindles love, and in accord with more goodness comes greater love.

Okay, so this is a summarization of what we've learned, right? God is love. God implanted himself in us, so we are all love. We aspire to return to love, and you do that by loving others. Okay? Does that make sense? All right, carry on.

Verse 46. I heard, "Through human reasonings and through authorities according with it, you conclude your highest love is bent on God. But tell me too if you feel other chords draw you toward him, so that you voice aloud all of the teeth by which this love grips you." The holy intent of Christ's eagle was not hidden. I indeed was made aware of what he would most have my words declare. Thus I began again. "My charity results from all those things whose bite can bring the heart to turn to God.

Okay, so the idea is that love is an action, okay? It is an act of openness, generosity to others. And when you do that, you turn the universe towards God. And you bring more happiness, you bring more love in the... Okay? And while she's saying this, the entire heavens are shouting, "Holy, holy, holy." Okay, I keep on going.

Verse 70. And just as a sharp light will startle us from sleep because the spirit of eyesight races to meet the brightness that proceeds from layer to layer in the eye, and he who wakens is confused by what he sees, awakening suddenly, and knows no thing until his judgment helps him, even so did Beatrice dispel with her eyes rays which shone more than a thousand miles the chaff from my eyes. I saw better than I had before, and as a stupefied, I asked about the fourth light that I saw among us.

Okay. All right, okay. So here Dante has passed the test. He knows what love is. And now he's talking to Adam, the first... And Adam says to Dante, I know your question is how long did it take me to come to heaven, right? Because I committed the original sin. I trespassed the boundary. I trespassed the condition that God gave us. And you want to know how long did it take for God to forgive me and allow me to ascend to heaven, okay? Why is this paradoxical?

There is no sense of time in heaven. So you just can't measure how long did it take.

Okay, yeah, that's a good point, but remember he was exiled from the Garden of Eden. He had to roam the earth. Right? So the question is how long did he have to roam the earth before God forgave him and allowed him to ascend to heaven? All right. But there's a paradox in all this. What's the paradox?

I think in the Bible it says he lived to 900 years or something.

Sure, okay, right? There's a huge paradox here. What's the paradox? Yes?

So maybe Adam doesn't really deserve heaven to begin with. Because, you know, he ate the fruit and all and he sinned and there weren't any priests around back then to save him and basically he's not all that qualified for heaven.

If the original sin could be forgiven, then why did Jesus need to die for us? That is a good question. But there's an answer to this, which is the problem isn't the original sin. The problem is our pride. And so through, you know, genetics, the idea of pride, the idea of original sin, the idea of evil was transmitted from generation to generation. And that's why Jesus had to come in order to redeem us of our evil, to ransom us back from Satan, okay? That's the explanation here.

Again, it's very subtle. It's hard to... Right? But in the Bible, if you read the Bible, if you go to Sunday school, what are you taught about the Garden of Eden and the fruit?

The Garden of Eden is the best garden, the best place that you could ever be, and the fruit is the best thing you've ever tasted.

Who tasted the fruit? Who broke the boundary?

What's going on here? It's Eve who trespassed the boundary, and then she tricked Adam into eating it, right? And here you're saying, "No, it's Adam." This is really straight... It's a paradox.

They're quite elevated. They're the...

Beatrice. Right? Think about this. In heaven, who teaches Dante? Beatrice. When we keep on going, you will find the person that is the most elevated in heaven is not Jesus. Who is it? Can you guys guess?

Maybe he's telling people to stop blaming women for everything that happened to you and start taking ownership of what you have done.

Okay, sure. You and you.

So, I think maybe because of love, because, you know, women are kind of representative of love. So if love does exist as God, then the woman should be the God. Maybe.

Women should be God, okay? Yes?

Well, I mean, Adam was created first and Eve was made out of his flesh, so I don't know that you could say already that Eve is a higher form because she's made out of flesh and Adam is made out of dust, and Adam was created as the first human, and he was told personally by God that he should not eat the fruit and Eve was only told by Adam that she shouldn't eat the fruit. So Adam has to take the responsibility for eating the fruit, he was told directly by God.

Okay, okay, yeah. So we're not arguing about whether it was Adam's fault or Eve's fault, okay? We go on and on about this. But I want to know why women are being elevated to such a degree in heaven where Beatrice is the teacher of Dante. It is Beatrice who revealed the truth of the universe to... And where Mary is elevated more than Jesus, why would Dante be doing this?

And maybe he's using the idea of maternal love again. Like he thinks maternal love is the closest thing to selflessness that God has on this earth.

That is true. He definitely thinks very highly of mothers. Yes?

I think...

I think for Dante the source of love was originally his love toward Beatrice. So that's why I think Beatrice or the feminine love embodies, you know, the initiator of his love. So I think that's why he thinks highly of females.

Okay, true. Okay, that is a motivation. Okay? But what are some other motivations?

I'm not that sure, but I don't know how the position of women was, but maybe in society they typically weren't the teachers and maybe in the material world they weren't so enjoying their lives that much, so sort of inverted in heaven and they could be saved.

Yes, okay.

I'm just guessing, but does this have something to do with the Catholic Church and how they treated women at the...

Okay. So this is a soliloquy. This is a social critique, right? He's criticizing directly how women are oppressed in society by the Catholic Church. Does that make sense? And what he's also saying is that if God is to shine in the world, if love is what matters, you can't do that. There has to be equality between the sexes. Otherwise, there can be no love in the world. If women are being oppressed at home, then this is going to negatively impact society because the children will grow up thinking that men are superior to women.

Well, but Dante doesn't just make women equal. He elevates them even. So, like...

Right. It's an inversion, right?

Yeah, it's...

Right. It's a highlight of the inequality of the real world, right? So you're drawing this contrast. There's this massive inequality in our world where women are not allowed to teach because they don't know anything. They're not even allowed to be educated, really. And where men are always placed in higher positions than women, so he's going to invert this in order to show you the... back in our world. Okay, does that make sense? It's a contrast. Yes?

I would just like to draw attention to all the tree motifs he has been using. That's all I wanted to say. It's the tree of life, obviously.

Right. Okay. All right. Yeah, there's lots of reference to the tree. Okay, let's keep on going.

Verse 118. During 4,302 returnings of the sun, while I was in that place from which your lady sent you, Virgil, I longed for this assembly. While on Earth, I saw the sun return to all the lights along its way 930 times.

Okay, so what he's saying is that after I died, I went to Inferno, okay? I went to hell. And who saved him from Inferno? Can you guys guess?

Verse 124. The tongue I spoke was all extinct before the men of Nimrod set their minds upon the unaccomplishable task. For never has anything produced by human reason been everlasting. Following the heavens, men seek the new. They shift their predilections. That man should speak at all is nature's act, but how you speak, in this tongue or in that, she leaves to you and to your preference. Before I was sent down to hell's torments on earth, the highest good from which derives the joy that now enfolds me was called I.

Okay. So there's heresy here. What is the heresy? Yes?

Then he was called I.

Yes, that's the heresy. Why is this heresy?

Should have been Jesus. Right. So what the Catholic Church insists on is the consistency and the constancy of Christianity, right? It's all consistent. And what Adam is saying is, no, it's all change. We change the name of God over time and that was just a natural process. It doesn't make sense. Okay? Because what the Catholic Church is trying to say is that our faith is immutable and eternal. What Adam is saying is, no guys, that's not how these things work, okay? Faith can be changed. What matters is your connection to the divine.

But I wonder if the L refers to El Olam or something, which used to be an old name of God in the Old Testament. So he was called Jehovah, he was called a lot of other different...

Right, right. Okay. So what you're referring to is the fact that what Genesis is doing is combining four different versions of the Bible. And we know this because there are two different names for God in Genesis. There is Elohim, which means gods really, and then Yahweh. Okay, so we know that these are two different writers. Okay, so they're different names. And so Dante is just drawing us back to this simple fact, which is that there is inconsistency in the Bible itself. Okay? Yes?

I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the line from 126, "For never has anything produced by human reason been everlasting." What he means by that.

Let me see.

Oh, right. Okay. So what he's saying is this, okay? The universe is eternal. God is... Okay? But language, which is a part of our reason, is a limited tool to express the divine. And over time, what's going to happen is that we're going to constantly change our language, constantly refresh our language in order to express the divine. Okay? And the people who will try to refresh our language in order to express the divine are the poets, right? And this is a natural process.

Yeah, but could it also refer to how over years human logic and reasoning can always change? Something, for example, today that we think is normal 1,000 years ago it wasn't, and vice versa.

But the faith, the hope that is...

Right. That's exactly what he's saying, okay? But the point I'm trying to make is that reason is predicated on... You only with language can you reason, okay? And what poets do is they constantly refresh our language to allow for more reason to take place, okay? So what Dante is doing is he's trying to promote the primacy of poetry over everything else. Okay? Language. Okay? Does that make sense? All right, let's keep on going, guys. This is now Canto 27, okay?

Canto 27. Unto the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, glory all Paradise began so that the sweetness of the singing held me rapt. What I saw seemed to me to be a smile. The universe had smiled. My rapture had entered by way of hearing and of sight. Oh, joy, oh, gladness words can never speak. Oh, life perfected by both love and peace. Oh, richness so assured that knows no longing. Before my eyes there stood a flame the four torches and that which had been first to come began to glow with greater radiance.

Okay, all right. This is Peter, okay? And Peter has come out and he is making the most radical, the most revolutionary criticism of the Catholic Church, okay? So Peter is saying, "He who on earth usurps my place, my place, my place that in the sight of God's own son is vacant now, has made my burial ground a sewer of blood, a sewer of stench so that the perverse one who fell from heaven here above can find contentment there below." This is kind of crazy, okay? What is he saying?

This one, Satan.

He's saying the Vatican is the seat of... This is literally what he's saying. The Vatican is the seat of Satan. And where's he saying this? In heaven.

And you know, this is not that much of a surprise because in Inferno he already condemned the Pope to hell when he dies, so...

That's Inferno. This is heaven. What should you be doing in heaven?

Praising, being happy.

How about forgiving others, right? Isn't that the main Christian virtue? Forgive others. Understand others. Show empathy. Be merciful. Peter, who is the first Pope, who is in heaven, who is beside God, who has all the eternal rewards that he could ever wish for, he just goes on this rant about the Pope saying this is a servant of Satan. What is going on here?

Yeah, because in the medieval Catholic Church during that period it was really chaotic, so maybe he just wants to represent that out of this guy's is not good.

Okay, I understand why he's angry, but the paradox is, wait a minute here. You're in heaven, you're beside God, God is all loving, God is all forgiving, all merciful, and you are cursing the representative of God on earth. Okay, this is a paradox. I have absolutely no idea how this was able to escape the Catholic Church. Okay, this is pretty blatant, what's going on. Yes?

So I know you won't accept this idea because you said that Dante is perfect, but personally I think that's him and his opinions bleeding through a little.

Well, clearly he does not like being exiled. Clearly he hates the Pope, right? This is his vengeance. But at the same time he's a poet. At the same time he's trying to speak the truth. And so again, let us give him grace. Let us assume that what he's... is to speak for God. Why is he doing... What's the purpose of this paradox?

And quite honestly, no one knows. This has baffled scholars forever. Okay, this passage is like, what is going on here? Was Dante drunk when he wrote this?

I think he did this maybe just to give a dramatic effect to his poem. Just so that this could be, you know, remembered as the shocking literature that was...

You're right. This is business, right? We will forever remember this. Okay, but at the same time, again, what Dante's been saying all this time is that God is all forgiving, all love, all merciful. Yet Peter cannot forgive the Pope. Cannot forgive... Yes?

To warn humanity, beware of false gods. Beware of just...

But everyone knows this, the corruption of the church is so blatant. Everyone knows this, right? The indulgences are blatant. Yes?

Or is it because he thinks that what the Catholic Church has done really is the greatest sin in separating us from the...

Yes. Can you explain? Can you...

Throughout what we've read in the Divine Comedy, the main belief of Dante is that we as humans can connect to the divine, but he sees that the biggest blocker of this is the Catholic Church. Therefore, what they are doing now on Earth is the greatest sin and it can't be forgiven.

Yes. Okay. Yes?

So I think it started in John and then in Ezekiel and then it goes to the Book of Revelations where they're talking about the Antichrist. And the Catholic Church seems to be more worried about heretics, but the Antichrist is going to be somebody inside the Christian community who's going to purposefully lead them away in an opposite direction of God. Where heretics just have other ideas of God.

Yes, exactly. This is clearly... Peter's saying is that the Pope is the... This is blatant, okay? There's no misinterpreting this, okay? There just isn't. Yes?

I mean, there's two factors to this. One is that God is all loving and all forgiving, but Peter is not God. They're in heaven, they're very close to God, but Peter is allowed to sometimes be a little bit hateful. That's the first part and the second part is that Dante is not here to stay. Dante is not here as a permanent resident of heaven. Dante is here so that he can take a message and he's going to go back and he's going to tell everyone all about what he saw, what he experienced here.

Okay, but this creates another paradox, which is you're in heaven and you've been there for thousands of years and all you've experienced is joy and happiness, where does this hate come from? Right? This is pure hatred.

It comes from the hatred of the subversion of the joy and happiness that you've experienced.

Yes. Okay. It's justice, right? The thing is so unjust that you cannot rejoice in your own happiness. Okay, does it make sense, guys? And this is the idea of Martin Luther King's famous "injustice anywhere is injustice..." Does that make sense? Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere. So it doesn't matter if it's happening far away from you. It doesn't matter if it doesn't impact you. You must speak out. Okay? That's what love is. Love is concern for others in a way that you must act out.

So, what Dante is trying to say, he's not trying to get rid of obedience entirely. He's not trying to push self-determination. He's saying, "Okay, be obedient, but don't be obedient to the church. Be obedient to God and the voice within you." Is that what he's saying?

Okay. What I'm trying to point out is what the priorities are. For Paul, the priority is to accept the mystery of God, to be humble before God, and to obey. And what Dante is saying is that no, we are not passive observers. We are active participants in the universe. And we have a use our imagination to believe we can change the world, to have courage, and to love others.

Could Dante's idea of humans driving history be the root of this great men, great people idea of history instead of collective history?

That's a hard question for me to... Dante is the root of the Renaissance. He will give rise to the Renaissance. And the ideas of the Renaissance will spread. How it spreads, how it interacts with other ideas is very complicated. Okay? All right, so...

So yeah, [clears throat] I was thinking about an interview of you and some other guy I watched, and you said that individuality and creativity is the greatest threat to the system and basically when you have that individuality you can deny the reality before you and create your own reality. And that kind of aligns with what Dante said about the arrogance as hope. Do you find a personal connection with Dante in this?

Okay, so I'm going to make a very arrogant statement, okay? So I first discovered Dante 4 years ago when I was forced to teach Dante for this great books course I was teaching in high school. And before, I never read Dante and I never had a desire to read... And it was a very tough journey. And 4 years later I will make the statement where I feel I understand Dante better than anyone else in the world.

This is me not knowing a word of Italian. This is me not having studied Dante formally. This is me not knowing the scholarship behind Dante. Okay? But you could do this as an expert where you go and try to sit in every Dante classroom. All right? And I guarantee you the conclusion that you will make is I have a better understanding of Dante than everyone else. Because what I'm trying to figure out is the psychology of Dante. The heart of Dante. The mind of Dante. And I feel as though when I teach Dante I'm channeling Dante.

Yeah, I'm going to be honest with you. I think the only thing that Dante scholars can agree on is that they have the best definition and best understanding of Dante.

Okay. Give me an example.

For example, all these people whose scholarship you just attempted to refute. For example, the people in the commento by Bruno Nardi for the type of the text and translations. Their interpretation kind of diverges from...

Okay. Well, then I'd be more than happy for you to read everything they write and then tell us what they write and have an argument. Okay? I'm probably open to that. Just tell us this Dante scholar believes this. And I would love for this argument to take place so that people can hear a diversity of perspectives, okay? But I'm pretty confident that my perspective has more... Yes?

So, I like what you said about individuality because I was trying to build it into it. I thought I'd build individuality into action because it's individual action. But the more that I'm looking at this, maybe instead of Holy Trinity, it's a mortal trinity or something like that, because individuality seems to be your individual imagination, your individual arrogance, your individual action. So all three kind of work into the individual and it's almost like God would want our individualized love.

You're absolutely right. So Dante, what he does that's very controversial is he celebrates individuality to an extreme degree. What he's saying is, you know, he's not saying, "Working together, we can save the world." He's saying that one person with enough faith, hope, and love can change the entire world. That's arrogance, right? That's a celebration of individuality that is pretty extreme. And yeah, so thank you for that, okay? Yes?

So what I'm actually very interested in is, are there any personal experiences of yours that help you connect with Dante?

Yeah, so it has to do with exile. Right? So all my life I've been in exile. I was an immigrant to Toronto, where I grew up. Then I went to Yale, which was basically isolation because I really didn't fit into the cultural milieu of Yale. And then from Yale I went to China where I was looking for my identity. I was looking for my roots, but I was very much a stranger in a strange land because as you can see, my values are very Western, right? And I'm not going to get along with Chinese because I am very much anti-materialistic.

Yes, I think you did.

Yeah, but yes. Yes.

But I would like to point out that your exile is mostly voluntary. I want to say that...

So, it's voluntary.

No, it wasn't.

Yes, it was.

Literally forced out of Florence and all his property was confiscated.

Okay, as long as he was willing to admit his crimes, as long as he was willing to compromise with the new faction, he would have been allowed to come in. He made the conscious decision to leave Florence, okay? Just go into the history, okay? They made many overtures to him and said, "Listen, let's make a compromise and you'll keep your property, but you must, you know, pay a fine or whatever." He thought it was unjust, okay? So it's his choice. Yes.

First, I have a question. Is that you're saying that your experience, you have lots of experience about the exile to different culture and different countries, and you think that, I mean, those kind of experience make you quite approaching to the truth, approaching to the free will of God. So does that mean for us who never have the experience to immigrate or being exiled from a group, it's much more harder for us to approach God? So does that mean human culture, for the people in a population, those kind of people in the population from the culture kind of prevent people from getting the truth from God?

Look, I mean, if you live in a city, you're going to be much more creative than if you live in the countryside. If you are cosmopolitan and you travel to many countries, you're going to be more creative than if you just stay where you are, okay? That's just historically accurate. At the same time, we need to recognize that Dante never really traveled that much. He really was within Italy himself. He didn't go and learn all these things, okay? So there seems to be a balance where if you stay in one place, you become complacent, but if you go too far, you [clears throat] become rootless.

Canto 27, verse 28. Then I saw all the heaven colored by the hue that paints the clouds at morning and evening, with the sun confronting. And like a woman who, although secure in her own honesty, will pale on even hearing another woman's failing, just so did Beatrice change in appearance. And I believe that such a close was in the sky when he, the highest power, suffered. Then his words followed with a voice so altered from what it was before, even his likeness did not display a greater change than that. "The bride of Christ was never nurtured by my blood, and blood of Linus and of Cletus, to be employed in gaining greater riches, but to acquire this life of joyousness, Sixtus and Pius, Urban and Calixtus, after much lamentation, shed their... We did not want one portion of Christ's people to sit at the right side of our successors, while on the left the other portion sat.

Okay, right. So this again is Peter and he's saying, "Okay, that the Vatican is now the seat of Satan, right? So what can be done?" What can be done?

Because that would be disrespecting people's free will. If...

Exactly. So God cannot intervene, right? Because again, the fundamental principle of the universe is free will. And free will is a manifestation and expression of God's love for us. Okay? If you truly love, you must give people choice. Yes?

But didn't God intervene multiple times in the Old Testament?

For example?

Well, the ark of Noah, in the Noah story. That's not right. And then what did God say to Noah?

That it was a mistake.

Exactly. Do you guys understand? There's something called the Noahide covenant. So he told Noah, I destroyed the world and I shouldn't have done that, man. [laughter] Okay? So God learns, okay?

But he still intervened.

Excuse me?

He still did it.

What? And he said, I'm sorry. I won't ever do it again.

So that's the only instance you see. What is it? That's the only instance where he intervened.

Well, I mean, in the Old Testament he did intervene quite a lot, right? But...

But that's the last one.

No, no, no. That was him just saying I won't destroy humanity if I'm angry. Okay? Do you understand? He's like, I will never destroy humanity again. Yes?

But you said earlier that God was perfect love. So why did he self-admittedly do this?

Okay.

So I used to go to a Bible college, so we had to write a lot of essays about these contradictions in the Bible, but we can talk about that after class if you want. Yeah.

Okay. We can go on for years about the contradictions in the Bible, okay? And what Dante is saying is that let's just use our imagination, okay? And look, there's like 10,000 explanations and one explanation is it's not really God that's doing this, it's the demonic urge that's doing this, which is a false god, right? So, but I don't want to go there, it's too confusing. Okay? But there are many different explanations for what happened. All right? So again, the question is Peter says there's so much evil in the world.

I'm a little bit confused with the line 56 and 57. "You," the vision is of God. "Oh why do you still lie concealed?" What does that "lie concealed" mean?

Why doesn't God... Why doesn't God take...

I'm sorry?

Why doesn't God take action? Right? You, the vision is of God. Right? You, God, you're being offended by all this corruption. So why do you still not do anything about it? Why do you not take action? Why do you lie concealed?

So you asked to God, right?

It's a lament. It's a lament. Yes, it's "you," God. Yes, okay. Yes, okay.

All right. Okay? Let's keep on...

Verse 67. As when the horn of heaven's goat abuts the sun, our sky flakes frozen vapors downward. So did I see that ether there adorned, far from that sphere, triumphant vapors now were flaking up to the empyrean, returning after dwelling here with us. My sight was following their semblances until the space between us grew so great as to deny my eyes all farther reach. At this my lady, seeing me set free from gazing upward, told me, "Let your eyes look down and see how far you have..." I saw that from the time when I looked down before, I had traversed all the arc from the first climb, from its midpoint to end, so that beyond Cadiz I saw Ulysses' mad course, and to the east could almost see that shoreline where Europa was sweet burden.

Okay. All right. So Beatrice, they are really up high, okay? They are so close to God, okay? They're about to enter the empyrean, which is the seat of... And then Beatrice says, "Look down and see how far you've risen," okay? And he's recognized that, "Oh my God, he's traveling higher..." length of the... Let me ask you this question. Why is Beatrice guiding Dante? Why was Beatrice chosen to be Dante's guide through the cosmos? Yes?

Personally, I would say that it's because Beatrice is the person who is familiar to Dante. And all of this is so grand and so beautiful and so great that if Dante tried to take it in himself, or if he was guided by someone who is a saint or someone not familiar to him, then he would have problems taking it all in. So Beatrice is kind of like a bridge of love between Dante and God.

Then why not Dante's mother?

Wait, is Dante's mother still alive at the time of writing? Yes.

I think because Dante loved...

Exactly. You understand. It's that simple. Because what's elevating you is your love for another person, okay? And the love is so powerful, it's almost like a tractor beam. It's like a rope that carries you. Okay, do you understand this idea? Okay, he's not flying. And what's allowing him to fly is not Beatrice, it's your love for Beatrice. So it has to be someone that Beatrice loves with all his heart. And that's why Beatrice was chosen. And that's how Dante was able to traverse the cosmos. Not him, not his will, okay?

Verse 85. I should have seen more of this threshing floor, but for the motion of the sun beneath my feet, it was a sign and more way. My mind, enraptured, always longing for my lady gallantly, was burning more than ever for my eyes return to her.

Okay, so you guys know what's going on. He is so obsessed with her, okay? What's keeping him going is the sight of her. Right? That's what gives him faith, hope, and love. He has to see her. So wherever she goes, he wants to go as well. And it's his love for him... I'm sorry, it's his love for Beatrice that propelled her, his will and his imagination. Okay, that's the dynamic here. And that's the dynamic of the universe. Yes?

I remember earlier on you mentioned that for the writer Dante, Beatrice is kind of like another reflection, but a greater self of himself.

And I was wondering, now since we're analyzing Dante's love towards... but since it's also a reflection of himself, but a greater self, could this love be more than he wants?

This is a great question, okay? So let's sit back and think about this. To love someone, okay, you have to love this person unconditionally. So you have to remove your ego from the equation. But the problem is Dante didn't know Beatrice, right? They knew each other when he was like eight, and they knew each other on and off. So Beatrice is not a fully conceived... Yes?

So maybe Dante here is preaching a radical self-love because the church tells you to feel guilty for all the sins you have done. Tells you to feel humility in front of the church, but Dante here is preaching self-love. Be confident and love yourself.

No, I don't think Dante would do that. He would not preach narcissism. I have a hard time believing...

Well, I don't think it's narcissism. Loving yourself and narcissism is not the same thing. Narcissism is relating your ego. Loving yourself is being kind to yourself.

Okay, this is really important because the reason why I say this is next week we will focus on the cosmic battle between Virgil and Dante. Okay? We will focus on the cosmic battle between Virgil and [clears throat] Dante. It's very important we distinguish clearly what is true love. And when we learn about Virgil, you will recognize that there is a narcissism to his concept of love that does not exist in Dante. Dante's love is unconditional. Okay? Yes?

Right. Okay, so yeah, so Dante would demand that you leave your ego, that you transcend your ego, okay? Doesn't mean you abandon your ego. Your ego is very important, but you have to reach out to someone else. So again, it's a really interesting question to think about.

I think two things are happening. First thing is that this is a very contemporary take, but the thing we cannot get is the most perfect in our mind. So because Beatrice is dead, Dante's perception of her remains forever when she was young and when he was basically a teenager, a young adult, and he was thinking that she is all kinds of perfect, and her image is forever frozen at that age.

Is Beatrice a child here?

No. No. That's not what I'm saying at...

I'm saying that his image of her is frozen, and that she cannot do anything to upset it.

No. No. Yeah.

So, you know, since we have an Italian scholar already, I'm going back to text for list and original list analysis. Beatrice means, you know, the blessed.

The blessed, yes.

So maybe this whole figure in this work is not a real person at all. It's just, you know, a literary...

I disagree. No.

No, no. If she were not a real person, if she was just a figment of Dante's imagination, the Divine Comedy would not work. It could not hold together. The Divine Comedy has to be an act of love, okay? She just has to be a real person, yes?

Yeah. Well, I have a question because I think Dante did believe in love, but if you don't believe we'll fall in love with someone, and you just get married, then you say you believe in love. So I think it's a bit contradictory.

Okay. All right. Look, we're out of time, okay? So I'll tell you my interpretation, okay? ...could not have known Beatrice the... but he could have known Beatrice the... Do you understand this? Even though she's dead, he could still, with his imagination, with his will, with his love, he could still communicate with... And how we know this is all the poetry that Dante wrote about Beatrice before the Divine Comedy. Right? So Beatrice was his muse throughout his life. Even though he married someone else, even though Beatrice is dead.

I am reminded of Piccarda and her story. So she was in the end forcibly married to a man, but she said herself that her heart was still with God and the fact that she is in heaven right now proves this. So I wonder if the situation between Dante and Beatrice might be more of the same. Even though Dante is married to another woman, his heart will always be with Beatrice.

Okay. This is a really hard question to answer, okay? And again, we're just going to use our... God is the source. We long to return to God.

I'm delighted to introduce Aurelia, who is a much more recent Yale College graduate than Jon or I, and is now studying at Yenching Academy, and she has kindly made herself available to come read the Italian portion for us.

And you've read Dante before?

Okay, good. Okay. All right.

But only Inferno.

Oh, okay. All right. Okay, so this is Paradise. We are now in Paradise. Why is it you guys spend all your time in hell?

Hell is so interesting. I mean, there's so many terrible punishments. It's kind of fun to read about them.

All right. Okay, well, thanks so much for coming. And so what we're going to do is maybe you'll read a tercet. And then you'll read the tercet, okay? And then we'll go on like that, okay? And again, why it's important here is the Italian, it's designed to be read and spoken aloud in Italian, okay? So you can't really understand the poetry unless you hear it aloud. Okay? And not knowing Italian, I'm going to make some stupid guesses about what's going on, okay?

Oh, wow. That's beautiful. Oh, wow. Okay. This is why Dante is the greatest poet in the world. You can now hear the beauty, right? Wow, okay. Any comments about it? Can you do that again? Okay, because it's so beautiful. And can you do it a bit slower so we can catch the cadence, the sort of fluctuations in sound?

To be honest, it sounds much more gentle and it sounds much softer than the English version. I'm going on vibe here, but what I'm saying is that the English version does not convey the idea of love enough. It talks about love, but it does not make you feel it.

Yeah. I felt my soul vibrating, okay? No, I'm serious. And that's what Dante is saying. The universe is energy, it's vibration, it's love. And this language, it is energy, vibration, and love, okay? This is why it's important to read the Italian because when you read the Italian, it is structured in a way so that you vibrate with the universe. It draws you closer to the source. Yes?

Yeah, I would actually like to hear more because we don't even get the opportunity to take advantage of the end rhyme scheme, the ABA BCB.

And it all be sing song.

Yeah, so that's why people tremble at Dante, because it has to be an angel, right? When he's saying this poetry to you, it's like an angel has taken possession of you and is conveying the beauty of God. How else do you explain this beauty, right? Okay, so let us go on with the reading.

Sure. Yeah, let's just...

Read tercets, okay?

All these would seem nothing if set beside the godly beauty that shone upon me when I turned to see the smiling face of Beatrice. The powers that her gaze now granted me drew me out of the lovely nest of Leda and thrust me into heaven's swiftest sphere. Its parts were all so equally alive and excellent that I cannot say which place Beatrice selected for my entry.

And I will point out that now we can connect it together, right? Where I just told you that Dante could only have written this because of his love for Beatrice, right? And if you hear the language, you hear the Italian, it's almost like they're making love. Does that make sense? But this just the vibrations is almost...

It's beautiful.

Yeah, yes, okay. Keep on going.

I mean, I agree. I feel like there's something very like the s... there's a kind of more... what's the word?

And then also the s... what I... in English, the sibilance, the sibilance comes through a lot more.

Just out of curiosity, how close is this Italian to exactly...

It's exact. He created Italian, okay? This is the guy who created the modern Italian.

Oh, no, I was just stretching my hands.

Okay, yes. So Dante created this a long time ago. I'm wondering if the actual meaning of the words or the pronunciation have changed since then.

I'm guessing not. My guess is it hasn't. But you would know better than I.

So it's different than modern Italian. It sounds more... It almost sounds like the dialect that you would find in the south. Like some of the ways that some of the words are shortened into one, or you can see "Che non so dire." That would be k e o non so dire. So he's kind of... It sounds... You can understand it with modern Italian, but it sounds different. Almost like you'd closer maybe to Shakespearean English. Kind of that type of feeling.

Okay. Yes.

How different is it for you from reading it?

It's like way more, I feel like it's way more transcendent and beautiful.

Yeah, great question. Okay. So my guess, okay, I don't know, okay, but my guess is that Dante is trying to mirror the vibration of the universe, okay? So obviously in heaven vibrations are... Okay. Lower sounds. And in heaven it's deeper, right? Slower vibrations. So harder sounds as well. And having not known anything about Italian, okay? That's my guess.

Yeah, I remember I actually had to learn a little bit of the Inferno. And the only lines I remember is like "Cred'io che credette ch'io credesse che tutti i vo' ch'uci siate per l'alto fiumana." It's like more...

And you can do that by controlling syllables. Okay, does that make sense? There are some hard syllables and there are some... So there are some hard consonants and soft consonants, okay? This is all intentional on his part. Okay? That's how powerful this is. And again, I said this 2 days ago, but unless you truly understand Italian, it's almost impossible to understand the Divine Comedy. All right? Yes?

So something I think Italian is called Latin's master child. So basically Italian is really close to Latin and I've learned a little tiny bit of Latin and Latin has endings. So basically you can see a lot of a, a, a, and these are all endings and I think it makes it more rhythmic almost. It makes it easier to rhyme and makes it flow more smoothly than English, which is all broken up and has no endings.

I'm pretty sure there's some rhyme translations in English, but they are pretty bad. But I think I can't remember what it's called, but...

Okay, so first of all, let me ask you this question. This is neither, Okay, can you explain the meter scheme to...

Can you actually write it down for us? So to...

So we can look at which syllables are stressed and unstressed, but I...

Okay, it's called neither, okay? So, like, and love you too, can I swear to me and do say. So it's like every other syllable is stressed and unstressed. And love you too. So I'm pretty sure I need to check my notes because I literally was doing this years ago, So another thing is this is music, okay?

It's designed to be music. Right? So in other words, the idea is that you hear it once and it sticks in your brain forever. You can sing it to... Right? That's why Tuscan became the official language of Italy over time. Okay? All right. Okay, so let's continue, guys. Okay?

All right. Verse 103. But she who saw what my desire was, her smile had so much gladness that within her face there seemed to be God's joy began. The nature of the universe which holds the center still and moves all else around it begins here as if from its turning post. This heaven has no other where than this, the mind of God, in which are kindled both the love that turns it and the force it reigns.

I'm not sure if sexual, but maybe. I mean, she's... he's talking about desire, right? There's gladness. It feels very like that's kind of what he's talking about.

Okay. So I think the language is designed in order to demonstrate, to illustrate the conjoining, the total intertwining of souls together, okay? It's almost like a sexual union, a sexual climax where they've had this very long journey together. They've had many adventures. They've been through a lot of obstacles. And now that they've reached the end they can now finally make love to each other, okay?

Yeah, I feel like, I mean, honestly I do feel like there's the sibilance that I mentioned earlier and I feel like also, something I noticed earlier is the way that the Italian words have, I feel like, meanings that come through. They have similar sounds in English in Italian that don't come through in English. So there's one part where it says donna and donna. So donna means woman, donna is like to give. So I feel like there's overlapping in meanings in some of the sounds.

Yeah, I mean, just trying to figure out what he's trying to do, it seems as though he's trying to express the consummation of this love but between Beatrice and Dante. Yes?

I think this is also very biblical because in a lot of Jesus' sermon on the mount or whatever, there were a lot of wedding things that are talked about. Yeah.

Yeah, this is almost like a wedding. Yeah, thank you so much. That's a great point. Yes?

This is again my personal feeling, but I think that this is more like these two both joining God and maybe joining together in the process than the two of them joining together separately, because before this climax, there's so many mentions of Beatrice looking towards God like she's his bride, and of Dante looking towards Beatrice, not Beatrice is so beautiful, but God is shining for Beatrice, and God is so beautiful. So maybe they're both joining together in God, and that's what's making them join, not separately.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, yes, you need to love someone in order to reach God. Yes?

Yeah, I have a question. So you mentioned how they have this kind of sexual resonance before between Beatrice and Dante, and I know misordered sex is considered sinful, and why are they justified for having these sorts of resonance? Is it because it's leveled up from physical to a more spiritual level?

Okay. So again, Dante is a heretic. He is not going to follow church theology. The sexual nature of this language, what is it trying to do, do you think? What was the point of this sexual language? What is its effect on the reader? Yes?

It's a universal language, and the reader is meant to understand it.

Okay. Yes.

It represents the beginning of closest to climax, aka getting closer to God.

Exactly. Okay. The sex is meant to represent God. Does that make sense to you guys? Okay. Because sex, what it is, is the union of all things. Okay? All right. So as we are moving towards God, there has to be the unity of Beatrice and Dante in order for Dante to fully proceed, because when you approach God, you have to do it by yourself. Beatrice won't be there. As I said, it's impossible for two people to be with God. You only, you can do it.

I'm reminded of this Catholic custom of limiting the days on which even marital sex can be undertaken. It's severely limited. No Sundays, no Lent, no Easter. And maybe this is an anachronistic stretch, but maybe Dante here is advocating for not a free, but at least a freer approach to human sexuality than what the church encourages.

There's very, very little sex in the Divine Comedy. Okay. Yes?

I think that take is saying that sex is more physical than it is spiritual.

Yes. Yes. Dante is advocating for a spiritual union, okay? All right, but let's keep on going, all...

Verse 112. As in a circle light and love enclose it as it surrounds the rest, and that enclosing only he who encloses understands. No other heaven measures this sphere's motion, but it serves as the measure for the rest even as half and fifth determine 10. And now it can be evident to you how time has roots within this vessel and within the other vessels has its leaves.

Luce e amor d'un cerchio lui comprende, sì come questo li altri, e quel precinto colui che il cinge solamente intende. Non è moto per l'a- per altro distinto, Okay.

So what I want to point out is that you can read the poem from infinite angles, okay? So there is the language which provides insight. There are these biblical references.

Verse 121. You who within your depths cause mortals to sink so that none is left able to lift his eyes above your waves. The will has a good blossoming in men, but then the never-ending downpours turn the sound plums into rotten empty skins. For innocence and trust are to be found only in little children, then they flee even before full beard cloaks the...

Okay, so you can just hear the sounds and even not knowing the language, I don't know the language, but you really feel the sadness, the pity, the poignancy in the tone, right? Where Dante, Beatrice, they are now up with God and they can look down below and see the folly, the silliness, the shortsightedness of humans, right? Okay? Where humans insist on fighting almost nothing in our world and they abandon the spiritual pleasures of a higher world, okay? It sounds like pity.

Oh, yeah, I agree. It sounds like a lament. And also, I wanted to ask, we know that in history this is the time when Italy was embroiled in turmoil [cough] and in war. So could this be Dante's call for his age to stop fighting with each other and start uniting towards peace and greater understanding?

No, he's calling for greater... He's calling for the recognition of the infiniteness, the vastness of the cosmos, okay? That's the secret. But asking for peace does you no good. What people need to recognize, what people need to do is expand their imagination, expand their sight. Okay? That's what he's literally calling for, okay? And we'll see that as we go on, okay? Let's keep on going.

Line 130. One, for as long as he still lisps, will fast. But when his tongue is free at last, he, gorgeous, devouring any food through any mouth. And one, while he still lisps, will love and heed his mother. But when he acquires speech more fully, he will long to see her buried. Just so white skin turns black when it is struck by direct light. The lovely daughter of the one who brings us dawn and leaves us evening.

Okay, let's keep on going.

Verse 139. That you not be amazed at what I say, consider this, on Earth no king holds sway. Therefore, the family of humans strays. But well before 1,000 years have passed, and January's un-wintered by day's hundredth part, which they neglect below, this high sphere shall shine so that Providence long awaited for will turn the sterns to where the prows now are, so that the fleet runs straight, and then fine fruit shall follow on the...

Okay, so another thing that I'll point out is that astrology, astronomy are very important in your life. Call me. Again, I don't know astrology, so I can't comment, but you can see these, see astrology, okay? And what astrology really is is the cyclical movement of the universe. So does a language capture cyclical movement? Are you able to feel and hear the cyclical movement? Spherical movement in the words.

I think outside of what we already talked about is the rhyme scheme. I think there is kind of maybe we can see a little bit more of the openness and the O's and a certain kind of roundness, I think, in some of the vowels that end these. So svernine il letta. I feel like it's a little bit more pop e volgerà u'son le prore. And then the fiore. I feel like there maybe is a circularity just to those. And definitely a blooming and a return, I feel, to the seasons with the cyclicality.

Canto 28. After the lady who imparadises my mind disclosed the truth that is unlike the present life of miserable mortals. Then just as one who sees a mirrored flame, its double candle stands behind his back even before he thought of it or gazed directly at it and he turns to gauge if that glass tells the truth to him and sees that it accords like voice and instrument.

Wait, stop. Okay, all right. This is important, okay? Does anyone remember where we saw a mirrored flame before? A mirrored flame. This is actually very important for the ending, okay? So I draw your attention to this. A mirror flame, a flame in a mirror. Where did we see this before?

During the experiment when they discussed the dark spots on the...

Exactly. Do you remember where Beatrice is trying to prove to Dante that brightness is just as bright no matter the distance, right? And so they construct this experiment where there are three mirrors and you hold a light, a candle, and the brightness is still as bright anywhere. The size might be different, but the brightness is still the same. Okay? I want you to remember this because this is the metaphor for God that Dante will use at the very end of the Divine Comedy, okay? The mirror flame.

Verse 10. So does my memory recall. I did after I looked into the lovely eyes of which love made the noose that holds me tight. And when I turned and my own eyes were met by what appears within that sphere whenever one looks intently at its... I saw a point that sent forth so acute a light that anyone who faced the force with which it blazed would have to shut his eyes.

Okay, so something that we didn't want to feel as to appreciate is that what Dante is telling us here is that what is at the center of the universe?

God, okay? Okay? Do you understand this? At the very center of the... it's God. So everything in the universe is emanating from God, right? Okay, keep on going.

Verse 19. And any star that seen from Earth would seem to be the smallest set beside that point as star conjoint with star would seem a moon. Around that point a ring of fire wheeled, a ring perhaps as far from that point as a halo from the star that colors it. When mist that forms the halo is most thick, it wheeled so quickly that it would outstrip the motion that most swiftly girds the world.

Okay, so let me point this out where the poetry is written in meter. It's written in rhyme as a way to express the mathematical beauty and structure of the universe. Okay? Does that make sense to you guys? Where the poetry, the language, the of the meter, it's meant to mirror the symmetrical structure of the universe. Okay? Is that true here? Okay, can you explain?

Yeah, I think the way that we saw how it was written, you know, I think he's really trying to overwhelm us with the numbers, right? He's kind of trying, I think, to reflect in this kind of overwhelming rhythmic and rhyming vision what the universe is structured like and how beautiful this kind of symmetry is.

So it's interesting, okay, because we are reading this poetry wrong because poetry is not meant to be read, okay? It's meant to be heard and spoken. So when Dante was writing his poetry, guess what, guys? He was not writing the poetry. He was speaking it. He was singing it. And you guys understand this, okay?

Verse 37. And I believe the ring with clearest flame was that which lay least far from the pure spark, because it shares most deeply that point's truth. My lady, who saw my perplexity, I was in such suspense, said, "On that point depend the heavens and the whole of nature. Look at the circle that is nearest it, and know its revolutions are so swift because of burning love that urges it." Verse 46. And I to her, "If Earth and the nine spheres were ordered like those rings, then I would be content with what you have set out before me.

Okay, so there's a paradox here, right? Where what Dante sees is God is at the center of the universe and from there everything else emanates outwards, vibrates outwards. And obviously the closer to God you are, the faster you spin, the faster you vibrate because you burn for your desire to be closer to God. And as you move out, it's almost like people lose faith, they lose hope and they spin more slowly, they're more lethargic, okay? That's what he's seeing, but in our world, in the world of senses, it's the opposite where if you just look out in the night sky, it seems as though the further you are the faster and also the more holy, the more divine it seems.

Yes. Well, I mean, I would say that it doesn't make a difference because God is everywhere and anywhere. So the shines everywhere and every spot. So you can still feel God.

For example, like a metaphor.

Okay, good. Okay. All right. God is everywhere. So there's really no center. God... we are the center, yes? Any other possibilities? Based on what we've learned, what we've discussed.

Verse 58. "You need not wonder if your fingers are unable to undo that knot. No one has tried, and so that knot is tightened," my lady said, and then continued, "If you would be satisfied, take what I tell you, and let your mind be sharp as I explain. The size of spheres of matter, large and small larger small, depends upon the power, more or less, that spreads throughout their parts. More excellence yields greater blessedness. More blessedness must comprehend a greater body when that body's parts are equally complete." Let's just finish her... Yeah, her...

"And thus the sphere, which sweeps along with it the rest of all the universe, must match the circle that loves most and knows the most. So that if you but draw your measure around the power within, and not the semblance of the angels that appear to you as circles, you will discern a wonderful chord between each sphere and its intelligence. Greater chords with more, smaller with less."

Different perspectives. We are looking at God one way, God's looking at us...

Well, it's definitely different. Right? But what's going on here?

We can become the center of this universe in the space all around...

And how do we become the center of the...

By becoming one with God who is the center of the universe.

No, no, no. I'm saying how did we develop the geocentric model of the universe? The Bible told us so. No. No, I think it's Ptolemy who told us so, right? It's in the Bible.

The logic here is that God created the entire universe, but God likes humans the best, and therefore he likes the world that the humans live on the best, and therefore Earth is the middle of everything. I think that's kind of how logic works.

Oh, okay. Well, anyone else? I think what he's trying to say is that we live in a world of illusion. Okay? Everything you see with our eyes is all just things we made up. It's all an illusion. Okay? It's all a product of our imagination. Because our imagination can both reveal the truth to us, but it can also lie to us. Okay? Does that make sense? Okay? But if you really want to know the true nature of the universe, feel with your heart. Okay? Feel with your heart. Feel your soul.

Yeah. I have a question because we don't know where the heart is, because some people say the heart...

Our heart is...

Part of your chest or heart of your mind.

No, your heart is your intuition, right? It's what you feel to be right. Does that make sense? It's what you know to be right. It's not what you see to be right, it's what you know to be right. Any other questions? Yes?

The body is?

Not in our world, though. In the spiritual world. She's referring to the spiritual world.

But our eyes see things farther as greater and bigger.

Wait. All right. Okay. So let me explain some Kant to you, Immanuel Kant, okay? And this is his understanding of how we perceive things. So Kant differentiates between the noumena and the phenomena, okay? Noumena is just things in... Okay? And this is what Beatrice refers to as the spiritual world, the real world, okay? And then the phenomena are things to us. Okay? So how we interact with reality is we see the noumena and then we filter through time and space.

Maybe another way of reconciling this, you know, this distance versus center paradox is to view God not as a singularity or a point, but a comprehensiveness, you know, so, basically...

The bigger the scheme, the closer we are to God. So God is really the most comprehensive, the most, you know, permissive, permeative, which means God actually is the biggest scheme, and it's everywhere and nowhere. So the further we look, maybe, you know, from the human point of view, the bigger scheme we have in our eyes, the closer we are to God.

Okay, yeah, good. Good. Anyone else? Did you have a question or...

Yeah, I still have a question because the love is... I don't know what love really, true love is. If you mean the true love which is soulmate, just which can cause love, or just using the sex, the sexuality there which can cause love.

Love is something you don't explain. Love is something that you do. Love is something you experience, right? A mother's love for her child, right? It's unconditional giving of yourself to someone else. Okay, did you have a question?

Yeah, I just want to ask, does human intrinsically have how their intuition to observe or knowing what's really nominal is? When we appreciate what's going is that the soul is infinite, okay? What I mean by that is that it is existing in different dimensions all at once.

Yeah. So, but I feel I just don't understand because for us we're human, we are limited by the time and space, right? So when we...

No, you're not. Your perception is limited by time and space. You are not. Okay, so...

So okay. So let's say my perception is limited by the time and space and my eyes will be deceived, right? Maybe this is to find the truth. So you're saying that if I could be deceived by or limited by my perception, how could I convey the true message into myself who stays at the higher layer, you know. Because for me I can receive the information from...

Right. So we were discussing this all the time, okay? Use your imagination, use your intuition, act faith, hope, and love.

And then the soul aligns itself. Okay, does that make sense?

Yeah, I know. So I just quite feel confused about the relationship between the soul and the perception because I think sometimes, I mean, in order to make the decision my soul needs some information from my perception. Is that right? Because I don't think I can intrinsically have those skills to know what is right for me of my soul.

Okay. All right. This is how the universe is structured, okay? All right. Okay, this is hard to understand, but let's just say infinite number of us, okay? What's happening is that your soul is infinite. It travels across multiple dimensions, right? So what's happening is that depending on the dimension your alignment with others is different, right? Here you are by yourself, here you are with another person. Blah blah. This goes on for infinity. Okay, does that make sense? And what you're doing is you're focusing on the here and now, and so what you're doing is you think that this is the only reality, when in fact it's only a small fragment of your total reality.

All right. Okay. Let's continue. And for we don't have hour just because we're in a rush. We don't have to hear the Italian more. Let us read in English. Yeah.

Verse 79. Just as the hemisphere of air remains splendid, serene when from his gentler cheek Boreas blows and clears the sky, dissolves the mist that had defaced the sky, so that the heavens smile with loveliness in all their regions, even so did I become after my lady had supplied her clear response to me, and like a star in heaven truth was seen. And when her words were done, even as incandescent iron will shower sparks, so did those circles sparkle, and in each spark circled with its flaming ring.

Okay, what is interesting about this language? What is strange about this language? And it's new to us. What sentence stands out to you? What sentence stands out to you as weird or... This didn't happen before, but it's happening now that we are closer to God.

What's the line?

Yeah, can you explain to her because Beatrice supplied her clear response to Dante and like a star in heaven, truth was seen. And when her words were done, even as incandescent iron will shower sparks, so did those circles sparkle. And each spark circled with its flaming ray.

Yeah. Can you guys understand this thing? The heavens smile with loveliness. Okay, this is really important, I didn't understand, okay? Where you have now reached Empyrean. And so there is a total unity of everything. So whatever you do is reflected throughout the cosmos. You understand? So if you say something and you smile and you're happy, the heavens smile with... Does that make sense?

Sparks that were more in number than the sum one reaches, doubling in succession each square of a chessboard, 1 to 64. I heard Hosanna sung from choir to choir to that fixed point which holds and always shall hold them to where they have forever been. And she who saw my mind's perplexity said, "The first circles have displayed to you the seraphim and cherubim. They follow the ties of love with such rapidity because they're as like the point of scriptures can be a power dependent on their vision. Those other loves that circle round them are called thrones of the divine aspect because they terminated at the first group of three and know that all delight to the degree to which their vision sees more or less deeply that truth in which all intellects find rest.

Wait, so this is a hard question, okay? But let me ask you and see what happens. So here we are in the Empyrean. And in the Empyrean are the angels. And there are different orders of angels.

Well, you're probably saying that I'm wrong again, but I think this actually reminds me a lot of the circles of hell.

The circles of hell?

Yes, because circles upon circles upon circles. Less than living creatures.

Okay, let me ask you this question. Do you think that these angels are conscious?

Yeah, that's a problem, isn't it? That's the problem. If they love God so much, if they're incapable of sinning, then do they truly have free...

Yeah. So what is this analogy of? Let's think about your life and the universe, okay? The script... The script in here...

Solar system?

The solar system, yes, okay. Yes, the solar system, the movement of the stars, it's all... Yes, that's one possibility. But I'm actually thinking of something else. Yes?

I think this looks like a brain, you know, in your head, a brain seems like...

Yeah, it's almost your body, right? It's almost like these angels are different organs in your body. They have actually no free will. They have no consciousness. They have a function. And they exist for a different reason. And they must exist together in order to maintain the functioning of the body, but by themselves they have absolutely no free... And this is a paradox. This is an extreme paradox in here if you are a Catholic theologian. Why would this be an extreme paradox for you?

They represent dead people. Like your soul goes into heaven and you become an angel.

Come on.

The messengers of God.

To me?

The messengers of God.

Why are they messengers of God? What do they represent? When you think of an angel, how do you imagine the angel to be? Good virtues.

Yes, virtuous, right? What else? Perfection, right? You mean [snorts] So, here's a question for you then. Are these angels being presented in a positive light in The Divine Comedy? We think of angels as virtuous, as perfect, but here, do you want to be an angel?

Not really. This is a paradox being created for us, right? I mean, you're taught to worship angels. You're taught to believe that angels are higher than you, but you read this and it almost seems like angels are just part of a political system that have absolutely no free... no consciousness, no purpose. I mean, they have a purpose, but it's not anything that they can control. They don't actually know free will.

But I guess maybe a Catholic would argue, or somebody who thinks...

Somebody who wants to defend the angels might say, "Oh, but because they're perfectly united with God, they have kind of the perfect expression of free will. They're the most free because they are free of sin. They don't have to worry about ending up in hell and being chained up for the rest of your life. They are fully free because they partake fully in the knowledge of God."

Yeah, that's a great point. So they are free because they can make no mistakes, right? They're perfect. So what we know about the angels is, and he just tells us, remember, the idea is that God is calling to you and you want to return to God, but it's your choice whether to turn to God or to turn away from God, right? And here the are always turning towards God. Okay? So they reach perfection. But my question is, do you think that Dante thinks this is a good thing or a bad thing?

Bad thing.

But why?

They lack imagination. They lack the ability to imagine and that for the lack of ability to truly and not just to love. They're not able to love.

Yeah, they lack consciousness. Okay, we think consciousness is a good... But again, I mean, you can argue what these angels represent is perfection, right? So when you truly embrace God, you're always turning towards God and you then lose consciousness. So it's a really weird idea to think about, right? We're, huh. So we're taught to be perfect, we're taught to be virtuous, but that just leads us to losing our imagination, loses our... This is a really troubling understanding.

They haven't experienced.

They have... Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, I was about to say that they can't feel time and space and memory, I guess, is related to that.

Yeah, you're right. Okay, so without time and space you can't have an experience. But why would you remember an experience?

It's when it's linked to an emotion.

To an experience with an emotion.

Yeah, you need the emotion, okay? Without the emotion you don't have memory. It's impossible if you're a perfect virtuous being to have an emotion because why would you get angry? Why would you get sad? Why would you cry? Okay? So this is a really strange paradox because what it seems like what Dante's really arguing for is the... of fallibility. Do you understand this idea? In other words, our flaws, our hatred, our pain, our... is what allows us to be perfect.

So I have this comment on live stream that really echoes with what Professor Johnson says. He says, "Angels are servants of God. We are not perfect and the beauty of human is in his imperfection."

Yes, okay, yes, okay. Yeah, so, yes. I mean, you could argue angels are just servants of God, okay? They're not meant to have free will, they're not meant to be conscious, they're not meant to have experiences. They're just meant to ensure the ordering of the universe, okay? They're just meant to ensure the proper structuring of the universe. They're like... All right? But again, this goes against our traditional understanding of things, right? Okay, I mean, are you Catholic?

Okay, but like...

But I'm happy to pretend to be.

Okay, all right, okay, but hearing this, what do you think?

I wonder because I feel like Dante expresses this paradox throughout the whole project of the Divine Comedy because we know he's lost in the middle of a dark forest at the very beginning and he's trying to figure out, okay, how do I escape this terrible confusion that I feel, which is what I feel like the student brought up. I'm sorry, I don't know your... But this kind of confusion of what do I actually want, if I want kind of eternity, but also that I don't know what my life is meant for.

Right. Yeah, so the idea is it's confusion that leads to clarity, right? Okay. Thank you. Okay. All right, let's continue, okay? Because I really want to finish the Divine Comedy.

Oh, can I also just really quickly bring up, because I know somebody also brought up Augustine, I think there's an interesting similarity with Confessions with this kind of, oh, I'm a fallible human. I kind of desire perfection, but also not really. I think there's a weird... Yeah.

Right. Okay. So this is going to be Canto 29, okay? And again, yeah. Could you please read the Canto?

Canto 29. As long as both the Thomas children take, when covered by the ram and scales, they make their belt at the horizon at the same moment to pass from equilibrium, the zenith held in balance, to that state where changing hemispheres as each leaves that belt, so long did Beatrice, a smile upon her face, kept silent, even as she gazed intently at the point that overwhelmed me. Then she began. "I tell, not ask, what you now want to hear, for I have seen it there, where and what point, oh whence and ubi not to acquire new goodness for himself, which cannot be, but that his splendor might, as it shines back to him, declare In his eternity outside of time, beyond all other borders as pleased him, eternal love opened into new loves.

Okay, so no need to recollect an interrupted concept just means there has to be no recollection, no memory of anything, okay? Does that make sense to you guys? No imagination, no memory, just pure devotion, obedience to God. Thank you. I'm going.

So that below, though not asleep, men dream, speaking in good faith or in bad. The last, however, merits greater blame and shame. Below you do not follow one sole path as you philosophize. Your love of show and thought of it so carry you astray. Yet even love of show is suffered here with less disdain than the subordination or the perversion of the holy scripture. There, they devote no thought how much blood cost to sow it in the world, to how pleasing is he who humbly holds it fast. Each one strives for display, elaborates its own inventions.

Okay. All right. So we'll just finish with Canto 29. Then on Saturday we break tomorrow, guys. Okay? We break and then we come back on Saturday and then we just plow through, okay? So on Saturday we'll finish the Comedy, Paradise, okay? So we'll look at cantos 30, 31, 32, 33.

Yeah, I feel confused because Lucifer, you know, Satan, who is also the angel of God, right? So if in Dante's [clears throat] case it means you do not always devote to God the holy, means you have to have your own awareness and consciousness, so do you think that he believed that Satan is right? Because Satan just has their own wilderness, you know.

You know, this is a really interesting question, right? Because he does mention that there is one angel who defied God, who turned away from God, and as a result, he was banished to hell. And this is interesting because what's going to happen is that Milton, John Milton, is going to read this. And he's going to come up with Paradise... Which is in many ways a celebration of Satan and his rebellion, okay? So the Divine Comedy is an inspiration for Milton's Paradise Lost. But when we read Inferno, what we will recognize is that there's nothing glorious in the rebellion of... Okay?

Okay? Does it make sense to you guys? All right. Any other... Yes?

I mean, back to the earlier several classes ago there was an analogy about the game master and the game players, right? So can I take this to be like God didn't intend for his admins, his angels, to be part of this game, but the game or rather the whatever you did, however the universe is designed for, it was designed for the generation of love and imagination by the human beings, the human players.

Yeah, you know, I think that's correct. I think the way to understand this is that God in his perfection, he recognizes he has a problem, which is that perfection is imperfection, right? And so the only way to complete himself, the only way to know himself, the only way to extend himself is by creating humans in his image. And humans are imperfect, but that is our perfection. Because with our clumsiness, with our silliness, yet our longing for God, we will somehow extend the imagination of the universe. We will extend the boundaries of the universe and let God know himself more, complete himself more.